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 Ultimate army list I have now!

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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 4:25 pm

@kyryahn
Thanks for the analysis and time.
First of all, this list is working because of tornado of Typhon. However MBP has decided to remove tornado, therefore this ultimate combo is no more there. IF Typhon still have the tornado, your Echo can never come near to be in range as the tornado can throw you to 3 areas away. Or Typhon can just one shot kill her from far with his 3 movement+1 ranged attack. That's why I mentioned that most of the heroes are useless in front of Typhon+Tornado because their ability range, defense, and vitality is low.
Another one is Echina. I think you forgot that the poison only work when the unit is activated. I don't need to activate Sisyphus at all, so he won't die of natural course =) and I doubt the token is still on when a unit is destroyed/died. Then a troop will keep dying if they got the poison token?
Your idea of forcing us to discard card is good, but you must do it continuously every turn in order to avoid any activation from us, which may not be possible if I still have the Typhon+tornado to throw you away from Sisyphus, or simply start killing your unit that come near, are you still going to attack Sisyphus while Typhon is in front of your unit?
Again, the combo is no more, we'll try to form another one =)
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 4:31 pm

@johangel
Thanks for your support! Currently QW is in the opinion that the 2 activation per turn limit will make us think harder of what to activate instead of allowing us to activate everything. As you said, I believe there must be a better solution between 2 and everything per turn. We'll keep playing and see what cam be improved regarding this. If all the units are balanced, then 2 activation per turn should not be a problem theoretically. Thanks!
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kyryahn
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 5:35 pm

@Clarence
Thanks for your answer. You're bringing up a couple of good points (Echidna's poison, hiding Sisyphus instead of using him as a shield as you first did).
Even without taking in account the discard effects, on average you'll draw one Typhon card every 4 turns. And you'll hardly have any art of war available to use to search your deck for one.
You don't seem to realize you only draw ONE card a turn. Making you discard is absolutely HUGE. That's why I'm using 2 units with Leader and 2 troops in this list. I want to activate more units, more often, then I want them to die Smile
How will you protect Sisyphus? You'll barely have cards to activate Typhon and even less the opportunity to use Tornado on the Toxotoi to preven them from killing him every other turn, if you want to prevent Echo from coming nearby. You'll very quickly have no more card in hand, and again, you only draw 1 a turn (you have as much chance to draw a Hoplites/Sisyphus card than a Typhon one).
You're describing things as if you always had your whole deck in your hand and able to use Tornado three times a turn (to move Ketos AND to move my ranged units AND to move Echo...). You'll barely be able to activate a unit a turn, while I should more often than not (thanks to Persephone card drawing ability) activate 2 units + 1 troop every turn, and at least 1 unit and 1 troop.

Whereas my plan isn't relying on any specific activation. Persephone's draw/discard ability is always on, as is Echo's Distraction.

I hope you won't take offense or think I'm pretentious. I like those discussions and you obviously have a good talent for strategy. It's just that, as an old Magic player, I know how powerful card advantage and action economy are. Bottom line, I think Hecate and Persephone are MUCH more overpowered than Typhon.
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Obsidiox
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 6:55 pm

Instead of looking at this in terms of activations per turn, I am looking at this challenge in terms of activations per deck cycle. The point of activation cards seems to be something like: "Typhon gets 6 moves to Zeus' 4". However as this strategy points out, a short deck will allow Typhon to activate much more frequently than that 6:4 ratio.

What if your maximun number of activations was based on the number of units in your army?

Something like:
- A third activation (with the same AoW / actication card cost if) your drafted army has at least 2 more units than your opponent (or the smallest army if there are more than 2 players).
OR
- each turn, for every 2 units in your army (not counting your divinity), you may spend 1 AoW card to activate a unit that has not been activated this turn. (This could make an all troop army very interesting)

Normally you wouldn't have the cards to activate a bunch of units, but on a quick recycle against a short deck, it could be a huge power surge.
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caibre
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 12:47 am

That's not true. Every time you deck out your opponent gets a huge hand so they get their God activations frequently. Typhon will still activate 6 per cycle but your opponent will get all the activation cards rapidly too so it's likely the ratio of activations stay similar.
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 2:50 am

@Kyryahn
Sisyphus is too slow to be active blocker, I will only use him to block line of sight when Ketos is still at the back waiting for right time to charge. Once is out, Sisyphus will just be a standing target.
I never say I can do 3 things with tornados in one turn, I just need to do it once per turn as Ketos can move by himself, I only need to help him initial stage, Echo I only need to move her when she's close enough, as she may need to activate 2 times before she can reach her effective range(movement 1 only), so I don't need to do 3 things at one go.
Leader talent won't allow you to move 3 units, the troop is the 2nd unit you activate without having to discard AoW only.
I'm checking with QW if the discard can be stacked, I illustrated a situation that ghee owner has to discard up to 6 cards if using Sisyphus + Persephone, will let you know once I get the answer. Thanks! can do 3 things with tornados in one turn, I just need to do it once per turn as Ketos can move by himself, I only need to help him initial stage, Echo I only need to move her when she's close enough, as she may need to activate 2 times before she can reach her effective range(movement 1 only), so I don't need to do 3 things at one go.
Leader talent won't allow you to move 3 units, the troop is the 2nd unit you activate without having to discard AoW only.
I'm checking with QW if the discard can be stacked, I illustrated a situation that the owner has to discard up to 6 cards per turn using your logic if using Sisyphus + Persephone, will let you know once I get the answer. Thanks!
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 6:41 am

@caibre
You're right, the opponent will get all the cards that he hasn't drawn. However one thing can be sure is his God can't have full activation before the Typhon or Ketos fully spent theirs, because the total activation will spread between more units and he may not have all the activation cards of his God at hand before I finish my deck and become very efficient with my 2nd deck.
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Terenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 8:35 am

@Kyryahn
Your "Card Discarding Tactic" will not work on my team.
Why? I recruit Sisyphus just for his AOW, not him. I can counter your tactic by NOT deploying Sisyphus. How can you kill Sisyphus if he is not deployed? Then all your team's POWER will be wasted.
Sisyphus is the least significant unit in my previous Ultimate team (Typhon, Keto, Hoplites, Sisyphus)(Not exist anymore because Tornado (POWER) will be taken away). I do not mind if he doesn't enter the battlefield. I just need his AOW.
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Terenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 9:07 am

@Kryrahn
Most of the unit proposed by others to counter this Ultimate Team (Typhon + Keto, not exist anymore after MPB decied to take away Tornado Power) will be destroyed or crippled in one turn if they try to get near my team. Most of them do not have any chance to use their POWER. For example, Echo, Orpheus, Diomedies and almost all hero will be killed in one turn if they try to get near my team. They do not have chance to use their power.

Weaker monster like Medusa(Petrify), Basillisk (Petrify) will be killed one turn too (I tried rolling the dice 3 times and 100% killed) before they can use their power. Other stronger monster and weak God will be crippled in one turn so they cannot use their power or cannot move because their vitality is too low. Even if they survive, they will die next turn. Unit with damage limit (Acamas the Cyclops, who will not suffer from more than 2 wounds from an attack) will be killed or crippled in one turn because my attack is actually 4 attacks in one turn (Typhon 10 +Ketos 9 +7+7), so I can inflict 8 wounds (2 +2 +2 +2) to Acamas the Cyclops in one turn and he can not use his Power anymore because his Vitality is below 2. Some Unit which immune to Ketos attack will be killed or crippled by my God/Titan or keep away from me by Tornado. Strongest Monster or Stronger God like Hephaestus (Flames of the Forge) will be kept away from me by Tornado (not exist anymore) so they can never hurt me.
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kyryahn
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 9:51 am

@Terence
Again, you're assuming you'll double activate every turn. You WILL have turns when you won't be able to activate Typhon for example. Then it's easy to move Echo nearby.
I absolutely don't believe you'll have Ketos+Typhon+1 aow card in hand to play EVERY SINGLE TURN. That's what you'd need to do what you describe. Whereas I can be efficient whatever card I draw.
You're also describing Ketos always making 3 attacks, which won't be the case if you attack a hero. You won't get back those devour tokens you're forced to put down, so you'll lose those extra attacks.

About Sisyphus:
Yup I thought about it last evening after my message. I see Sisyphus rebirth ability as counterbalancing the 4 aow cards he brings, but you can easily avoid his weakness just by not deploying him :/
Persephone discard ability doesn't only work on Sisyphus, but even when my units die. Actually Oedipus would be great in such a list. For 2 recruitment points you get 6 aow cards in the course of the game, and when you sacrifice his last life, your opponent discard and you draw.

Ketos would barely move against Persephone if you don't use your tornadoes to bring him along (Persephone gives -1 move to all enemy units automatically after her activation, or for 1 aow if you don't activate her). So you'd just have Typhon against all enemy units. Even if he activates every turn and I only activate 1 unit a turn (but with leader and the occasional aow, I should more often than not activate 2 units a turn), I don't think he can take Echidna, Diomedes, Persephone, etc in a row. He'll lose life after each exchange (especially as I'll have the activation cards in hand to retaliate, meaning for every you-then-me turn you'll do 1 attack and receive 2), even if he's stronger than any one of my unit. Echo is also pretty guaranteed to score at least 1 hit against any target every activation.

It's true about Leader ability. I thought it let you activate an extra time. Was the only reason I was considering troops other than ones with useful passive abilities. It really means troops without Guard are useless :/ Then I'd just have to pick a troop with Guard and keep it close to Echo, meaning you won't be able to one shot her (which would be VERY lucky anyway, you'd need to score 5 hits against a defence of 7) and then you'll be in her passive Distraction ability range.

It would be a tough battle, for sure.
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kyryahn
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 1:58 pm

My "ultimate" army list would be the following:
- Persephone
- Scylla
- Sisyphus
- Minotaur
- Oedipus

When Scylla is deployed, she comes with 4 troops (8 tentacles, each pair counts as 1 troop as indicated on their card) around her. At the end of her activation you can immediately move those troops to have them all in 2 adjacent areas. Best if Sisyphus is also in one of those 2 areas, then you can attack him immediately to kill him (Due to Persephone, your opponent discards 1, you draw and discard 1). Then you activate the Minotaur and charge through those areas. As written on its card, the Minotaur charge affects all units, so even friendly ones. With a defence of 5 and 2 hit points, while the Minotaur attacks each pair of tentacles with 6 dice and can reroll 5 of them by using an aow card if needs be, you should be able to kill the 4 troops and maybe even Sisyphus.
With Persephone ability, that means your opponent discards 5 cards and you draw 5 (and discard 1 as you killed Sisyphus). Should be enough to empty his entire hand.
All that without using any art of war card (except if you need to reroll the Minotaur attack dice). You'll use your aow to bring back the tentacles, while using Oedipus for aow effects to draw even more or fetch needed activation cards. You can do that 6 times with Oedipus, then he'll die (making you draw 1 and your opponent discard 1). That's a steal for 2 recruitement points.
Your opponent will barely have 1 activation a turn and hardly any aow to use freely, while you drew a lot of cards and will keep on drawing (and him discarding) whenever a unit dies. I wouldn't hesitate to kill Sisyphus myself, even several times a turn, especially after deck cycling as your opponent will get 3 cards back, to make him discard. As a side benefit, it also allow you to discard a useless card (Sisyphus activation cards for example) to draw another card.
Or just use the Tentacle Charge strategy again to mill your opponent's deck when he's out of cards to discard.
Scylla, her tentacles and the Minotaur are perfectly viable beatsticks even outside of this discard shenanigan. You should have such a card advantage that you'll out-activate, be able to retaliate etc when your opponent will basically only be able to activate the single unit for which he drew the card at the start of each turn. Also with Persephone after activation ability, enemy units will have -1 move, meaning the strongest ones will probably only be able to run. Or attack and kill tentacles (discarding and letting you draw), that you'll bring back.
As a side note, Oedipus is invincible against 0 strategy units like Ketos, Typhon or other big monsters unless they spend 2 aow cards (which they'll NEVER have in hand at the same time). So you could chose not to sacrifice him and instead use him against such threats.
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 2:33 pm

@kyryahn : interesting strategy. It should just need you to be able to attack your own units (but I don't see you shouldn't be able to do it). Remember through that you can only recall 2 tentacles with an AoW.

@Terence : I believe QW mentioned previously that the Ketos description will need to be worked on. I believe your tests showed that the unit is vastly overpowered (9+7+7 = 23 dice attacks for no AoW cast).
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kyryahn
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 3:35 pm

@Telgar
Yeah, I'm actually not sure you can attack your own units but I've checked the rules again and nothing seems to prevent it. Though the Minotaur's charge affecting your own units is a sure thing.
I have 9 AoW cards in my deck (on a 21 cards deck), that I could use only to bring back Scylla's tentacles as I have Oedipus to draw 2 cards or search through my deck for an activation card I'd need. Even moreso with Persephone's draw ability, AoW shouldn't be a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 8:29 pm

For me its a nonsense to be able to attack your own units (when there is no other enemy creature involved, f.e. using force of nature againts enemy creature but also hitting your own, that would be acceptable)

If there is nothing on the rules i think it should have to be added. In my opinion ofc.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   1st March 2017, 9:06 pm

kyryahn wrote:
My "ultimate" army list would be the following:
...
Then you activate the Minotaur and charge through those areas. As written on its card, the Minotaur charge affects all units, so even friendly ones. With a defence of 5 and 2 hit points, while the Minotaur attacks each pair of tentacles with 6 dice and can reroll 5 of them by using an aow card if needs be, you should be able to kill the 4 troops and maybe even Sisyphus.
With Persephone ability, that means your opponent discards 5 cards and you draw 5 (and discard 1 as you killed Sisyphus). Should be enough to empty his entire hand.
All that without using any art of war card (except if you need to reroll the Minotaur attack dice).
...

Not so fast. There are multiple mistakes on the current Minotaur dashboard that have been clarified by Leo and QW. You pay an AoW to charge, not re-roll, so you have to spend an AoW card to pull this off each time. For the re-roll, the dashboard should say something like "Reroll an attack dice for every 5 face rolled." At most you'll be able to re-roll 1 or 2 dice per attack statistically. Although still possible, this strategy is a lot less effective.

Aquiles10 wrote:
For me its a nonsense to be able to attack your own units (when there is no other enemy creature involved, f.e. using force of nature againts enemy creature but also hitting your own, that would be acceptable)

If there is nothing on the rules i think it should have to be added. In my opinion ofc.

The latest rules actually do state that you can't make an area attack unless there is an enemy in them. Under Area Attack: "The target area must contain at least 1 enemy unit. The area may also contain friendly units."

I think the issue is that the Minotaur is not explicitly making an area attack. Whether the final dashboards will have it be an area attack or not remains to be seen.
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kyryahn
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   2nd March 2017, 8:34 am

Yes, obviously many dashboards will change, some rules may change. So all of this is just theory. Still, it would be nice if there were effective strategies not only revolving around "hire the stronger units and stomp your opponent's ones" or run away gathering Omphalos.
About the Minotaur, I also thought it was weird that the Calydonian Boar and the Colchis Bull have the same charge power, but on their dashboard it does cost an aow. So it's logical if the Minotaur charge also costs one.
But having to spend an aow to draw 5 cards and make your opponent discard 5 still seems quite effective to me.
I also agree that you shouldn't be able to directly attack your unit, but as written it's allowed by the rules. Though the Arachnee's Web power explicitly stating friendly units can attack the web tokens could be interpreted as meaning you usually can't attack friendly units.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   3rd March 2017, 12:29 am

i actually think it's okay to attack your own units. they're following orders of their God and their God told them to attack the tentacles. why not?
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   3rd March 2017, 7:58 pm

As stated in this thread, troops have flaws and one of them is that they only have 3 activation cards per deck cycle.

To correct the troops' weakness and reinforce their potent, adding the following AoW manoeuvre could be a viable option :

"The active player may use this during their activation phases (steps B and C)."
"The player may search through their discard pile, and take 1 troop card of their choice"
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Thathane
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   4th March 2017, 7:45 pm

Maybe the players should start the game with x AoW cards where x equals their respective number of units...
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caibre
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   6th March 2017, 3:18 pm

kyryahn wrote:
Yes, obviously many dashboards will change, some rules may change. So all of this is just theory. Still, it would be nice if there were effective strategies not only revolving around "hire the stronger units and stomp your opponent's ones" or run away gathering Omphalos.
About the Minotaur, I also thought it was weird that the Calydonian Boar and the Colchis Bull have the same charge power, but on their dashboard it does cost an aow. So it's logical if the Minotaur charge also costs one.
But having to spend an aow to draw 5 cards and make your opponent discard 5 still seems quite effective to me.
I also agree that you shouldn't be able to directly attack your unit, but as written it's allowed by the rules. Though the Arachnee's Web power explicitly stating friendly units can attack the web tokens could be interpreted as meaning you usually can't attack friendly units.

I'm pretty sure that the Arachnee power is referring to the friendly units to the one that has been webbed.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   6th March 2017, 8:41 pm

Just wanted to say that I really like your combo, kyryahn. I think the fact that you need an AoW card to use the Minotaur charge is enough to make it less overpowered than it seems at first glance.

I really hope, MG won't remove this kind of depth in the game even if it seems weird to for some people to kill their own units. It reminds me of Magic or Hearthstone where, sometimes, you may want to kill or damage your own creature to initiate a combo. I can already imagine myself killing my own Gorgon to trigger her passive power, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   7th March 2017, 5:48 pm

i had a God Killer team that i thought would be extremely tough....but not near as tough as the Ares/Charybdis one.

Apollo *
Agamemnon ***
Eurytus *
Jason **
Marsyas
Sisyphus ****
(11+3 Art of War cards)

Agamemnon to always have AoW cards in hand.
Jason to Guard (if needed).
Apollo & Eurytus for a salvo of arrows on the oncoming God/Titan.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   7th March 2017, 8:50 pm

thefloriantrout wrote:
i had a God Killer team that i thought would be extremely tough....but not near as tough as the Ares/Charybdis one.

Apollo *
Agamemnon ***
Eurytus *
Jason **
Marsyas
Sisyphus ****
(11+3 Art of War cards)

Agamemnon to always have AoW cards in hand.
Jason to Guard (if needed).
Apollo & Eurytus for a salvo of arrows on the oncoming God/Titan.

what do you think about these changes:

Odysseus for Agamenon: brings 3 AoW, gives extra activation and draw a card but he can also use range attack.
And instead of Sisyphus: Atalanta or Autolycus. You will have 3 AoW cards less but still have 8+3, which is a lot, and Atalanta or Autolycus will be much more useful. more range attack or bringing omphalos to Apollo.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   8th March 2017, 5:17 pm

what do you think about these changes:

Odysseus for Agamenon: brings 3 AoW, gives extra activation and draw a card but he can also use range attack.
And instead of Sisyphus: Atalanta or Autolycus. You will have 3 AoW cards less but still have 8+3, which is a lot, and Atalanta or Autolycus will be much more useful. more range attack or bringing omphalos to Apollo.************

i know with Atalanta and Odysseus, you'd have an army full of archers which would be cool, but my whole idea was only to kill the God by luring him/her in with Marsyas and fully launching 4 attacks with Apollo and Eurytus. the key to having that many attacks/actions would be a lot of AoW cards. getting rid of Sisyphus loses a lot and Agamemnon just brings them into your hand.

Eurytus with 1 AoW card would get 2 (Range 3 - 7 dice attacks (Apollo's Bolster and his Archer ability)
AoW card for another action.
Apollo with 1 AoW card would get 2 (Range 3 - 8 dice attacks (+1 from Eurytus)
that's 7+7+8+8 on a God unit. not perfect and flawless but they'd be bleeding bad if not dead. with 4 activation cards each, they'd probably need just one more salvo to finish the job.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   9th March 2017, 11:23 am

thefloriantrout wrote:

Eurytus with 1 AoW card would get 2 (Range 3 - 7 dice attacks (Apollo's Bolster and his Archer ability)
Bolster only gives a bonus to troops.
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