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 Ultimate army list I have now!

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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 4:01 pm

Typhon has movement of 3 plus range1 attack = 4 areas away
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 4:09 pm

@QW
Understand your point, it's more important to have fun than chasing the power house. Losing a game is okay, as long as I enjoy the game. Just hope that there won't be too much unbalanced issues there to spoil the game, as not all people who want to play competitive in tournament will enjoy an unbalanced game.
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Terenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 4:27 pm

@Caibre:
I just tried throwing the dice to see whether 33 dice can kill Medusa in one turn. I tried 3 times, I killed Medusa easily 3 times (100%).
Medusa can not use Petrify power when her vitality is one. Basalisk can not use Petrify power when his vitality is two or one.
So I only need to make 6 damage to cripple Medusa, or 5 damage to cripple Basalisk so that they can not use Petrify power.
The chance that 33 dice cannot make 5 or 6 damage to a defence 7 monster (the defence gets weaker after each attack) is very low.
About the actual game play to test Typhon/Ketos combo, I have been playing with my brother (Clarence) to test this Typhon/Ketos combo. Nothing can stop them!
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 4:59 pm

Still does not mean that it's without counters. While you are dependent heavily on Typhon to make everything possible, the opponent can overload with crowd control just to beat down Typhon. Marsyas is a cheap easy way of completely trapping Typhon. All of the petrify units have plenty of movement and can be further boosted by the abilities of gods.

Any of the monsters/heros with Heraclean Feat and similar high range attacks can beat down Typhon. Yes, you have a very quick deck, but you also deck out much faster and will give your opponent the ability to destroy you. Kronos can deck you out faster. Artemis can snipe and avoid Typhon as much as possible. All of the petrify units can trap Typhon as can Orpheus. Units with the ability to lure like Marsyas, the Sirens, and Helios can draw Typhon into bad positions. Polyphemus has automatic might throw. Poseidon can use his storm to move his own units rapidly towards Typhon. Helios can draw Typhon into the grasp of the Colchidian Dragon or even into the grasp of Andromeda, which would be fatal for Typhon.

Due to the limited unit pool Typhon becomes very vulnerable to focused destruction since virtually nothing is there to distract other than Ketos.

Regardless, if you are going to play a limited pool format (which seems like the best way anyway since choosing between 150+ units seems like a very slow way to play), you are unlikely to get he perfect options. And your opponent has to basically allow you to do what you want without countering you. It's akin to the 4-move checkmate in chess.

Also, as for the rules on taking Omphalos cards, the rules as they stand seem to imply that you can only take them if you cannot afford any of the units in the pool:

"If a player cannot afford any of the remaining units, then all their
remaining RP are converted to omphalos cards: take 1 card for
each unspent RP."
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Terenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 5:36 pm

Marsyas's ability only works for Gods, not Titans.
After I finished my deck, I get all my discarded card back to my deck. Then I use same short deck again and again...
Almost all opposing unit will die/ cripple in one turn with 33 dice attack. Then you have a lot of destroyed activation card in your hands...
I activate two most powerful unit every turn, you activate two weaker unit every turn, who will win? No one can fight with Typhon+ Keto, if opposing Gods/Titan gets near, he will be crippled as well in one to two turn by 33 dice attack.
I do not think there is any unit that can outrun Typhon?
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 6:06 pm

I hate to get in on this discussion, because playing with non-final dashboards can lead to horribly misplayed rules, but I'm already seeing issues with what's being discussed.

First, you can't add ompahlos cards to your starting deck. You have to take a 2 RP unit or two 1 RP units.

Second, I can guarantee you Marsyas and Diomedes DO work on titans. Their dashboards were posted before the term divinities was even a thing and "god" referred to both gods and titans.


These next few points are more aimed toward QW, since they're details need to be worked out on the final dashboards:


I question Typhon being able to pick where he mighty throws his own units. If I area attack my own unit, the opponent gets to decide where they get mighty thrown. Why is Typhon suddenly an exception to this?


EDIT: Nevermind on this point, sounds Typhon no longer gets to typhoon people around. Too, bad. Surprised

For Ketos, does his Curse of the Sea target only heroes? Does CotS actually do damage or are you just looking for successes in order place tokens while no damage is actually being done? Two free seven dice attacks seems rather powerful, even for a 5 point unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 8:47 pm

A few more points:
- "Marsyas's ability only works for Gods, not Titans." I believe the deginitions are phrased such that references that apply to gods also apply to titans.

- The limitation i see is not with this idea getting through the deck, it's with having enough cards to make it work. 1 draw per turn: activate Typhon, extra turn (Aow), activate Ketos. That's a draw 1 to play 3, your hand won't last long. With a discard an AoW card to draw 2 cards, you're still at play 4 to draw 3.

- Where I am curious is the Ketos "curse of the seas". If he attacks a hero, he spends his devour tokens, limiting his extra attacks. Compared to other token based powers (which say you get the tokens back), I dont think Ketos ever gets thess tokens back. To Atapoi's point, what if Ketos only targets gods, troops and monsters? Does he keep 2 free attacks all game? It seems, based on his lore, that he is supposed to be able to devour 2 heroes... But avoiding heroes to keep his tokens to get a super attack seems more powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 8:55 pm

Voice of Olympus-

I think you missed the point.


  1. The purpose of drafting with RP should enable players to recruit competitive armies
  2. The two activations game mechanic MAY be a underlying flaw that makes ALL armies made up with lower RP units uncompetitive
  3. The example given shows a lethal combination exploiting the two activation mechanic. However, I want to emphasize that this may be statistically true for all top heavy RP built armies
  4. The solution proposed of activations tied to RP seems to provide a possible solution. Tying activations to RP will enable an army built out of lessor RP units to compete with an army of made of greater RP units by enabling the army built out of lessor RP units to potentially take more activations with those units.
  5. Obviously, one would have to look at the impacts of tying activations to RP. Does it break something else? What about and army built with 1 Divinity and 12 troops? That player would have potentially 12 activations in a turn. Is that an overwhelming advantage? Athena's Power of granting an additional activation would be above and beyond this RP limit, but does it lesson her overall value? Etc...


Voice of Olympus wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys. Some good points.

One thing that's been suggested a few times is that people will cherry pick only a certain group of units. Some will always be left on the shelf. Well, everyone has favorites, and if you play with the same people and the same pool you're bound to have those units you collectively prefer. Which is one reason we have the recruitment cards.

While you can restrict or modify your pool of available units without them, having recruitments cards (which were a SG, so you all get them) makes this much easier. And not being able to get your default choice means that you have to think about things again, and that refreshes the whole game.

I like playing with units I don't know well because it's a whole new challenge, plus I sometimes discover gems I didn't realise were there, or combos I hadn't considered. By using the recruitment cards to randomly select a pool of, say, half the units, I am given a new puzzle each time.

Then there's the suggestion that you might build an army for anything other than making it the strongest. You could be constructing a themed force, for example. Winning at all costs isn't the only way to play, and may not be the most fun.

So I think that there will be plenty of use for all the units in the game Smile
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Ultimate army list I have now!   27th February 2017, 11:26 pm

Arking, thanks!!
Finally someone get to understand what we mean! I have been repeating myself about the key issues is not a twist of ability or stats, it's about the fundamental rules of the game will force you to have certain choice only if you want to win. Whatever the special heroes that you put in, if the RP is low, chances are they don't have high stats. I don't mind to rush into your Marsyas at all if I only need two powerful units while your deck got many activation cards of weak heroes. Because that means you won't get to move your high power unit every turn, so I can kill the weaker one as long as I can activate my two faithful units every turn. And I can easily do so with a very short deck! Those who want to argue this point, please go and try making a a short deck and try playing a game to understand.
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 1:55 am

Imagine if I have all the s Sisyphus and Hoplite activation cards in my hands during first deck (they only get to activate once for deployment only), so what'll I expect when I reshuffle and draw 3 cards? The new deck will only have the two super units activation and AoW cards, sure I can immediately activate the two. The best part is the rest of my second deck will only have two unwanted cards, and it'll become totally none in my 3rd deck. All unwanted cards are in my hand because I don't need to activate them again (Sisyphus can't die. If die, just throw the useless hoplite card to revive him, and my opponent wasted a turn). This is what we mean short deck high RP don't bother about finish the deck, actually it's better to finish at soonest! This combo work so well also because we only need to use normal attack for 9+9+7+7 dices attack per turn, we only need AoW for 2nd activation or search card if really so unlucky with the draw. This is why Terence can claim that he never fail to get the cards he needed, so please don't post again that "you may not get the card you want".
Because of the current 2 units per turn limit, we really don't care how many units and cards you have in your hands as long as we can activate the two super units every turn. Even you got all the AoW to maximize the attack/special ability, we still got enough to either use AoW to release/couter or keep attacking using the 33 dices/turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 1:59 am

Just to clarify, you did switch topics here; from looking to a counter a specific combo, to the strategic benefit of a small deck.  

clarenceooi wrote:
I believe I have found the ultimate combination for this game. I challenge all of you who has played enough to counter my claim.
Typhon 10RP, Ketos 5RP, Sisyphus 2RP, Hoplite 1RP, total 18RP.

clarenceooi wrote:
Arking, thanks!!
I have been repeating myself about the key issues is not a twist of ability or stats, it's about the fundamental rules of the game will force you to have certain choice only if you want to win. [edit out]... Because that means you won't get to move your high power unit every turn, so I can kill the weaker one as long as I can activate my two faithful units every turn. And I can easily do so with a very short deck! Those who want to argue this point, please go and try making a a short deck and try playing a game to understand.

In my opinion these two things are very different discussion topics.  I think the specific army can be countered, but I am also interested in the short deck strategy.  This came up a bit in the thread about what happens when decks cycle and I think there are some very interesting ... exploits?  Strategies?

It seems like the larger deck would get a lift when they draw their entire deck into their hand (putting every trick in their more diverse army into play).  However when the larger deck cycles the small deck would get an enormously powerful draw.  I don't have a good feel for how many deck cycles a game lasts to know how often a large deck could be recycled.  

If the discussion is a short deck strategy of high powered cards, I would like to try an 8 point Titan (not sure who I prefer), Veteran Achilles and a big monster (Manticore or Prometheus)
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 2:00 am

I know the two super unit combo is gone after they change the Typhon, I am just trying to use this example to magnify the underlying mechanism of the game that may favour certain setup, and in the long run people may start to do the same and the game become not so fun. Therefore we want to magnify and bring it up and see if there is any thing that need to be changed. Your inputs are more welcome!
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 2:03 am

@Obsidiox: I hope you have realised that why I put such a glamouring topic and expose ourselves to attack is we want everyone to aruge with us, so that you will also started to see the underlying problem. As I mentioned shortly after our first few posts, we are trying to analyse the game and to avoid having super combo. We are gamer that want the game to be fun and playable for many years, not to show off that we have the ultimate team.
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 2:05 am

@Obsidiox: imagine if my topic is: Please come and discuss about the current rules, or please comments on the current draw system. How many will come in and get excited? =)
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 4:53 am

What do you think about allowing only one titan or 5 point unit... that would help mitigate having small potent armies.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 9:19 am

I believe the draft proposed by Clarence & Terence is interesting because it raised a number of tricky points - the main one being with such a draft, you have to counter (counter draft, counter moves, etc) rather than play the game. Issues:
1/ Ketos - personally, I always felt this unit to be over-powered
2/ Sisyphus - I don't get how to play/how to use the unit ; it looks like a unit you don't want to put on the map, but you have to spend your activation cards at one point or another
3/ Deck strategy - is it interesting or not to have a short deck, to spend it quicky ? I understand that you're putting a lot of cards in your opponent's hand when you exhaust your deck first but with a short deck, you have the activations you need quicker in your hand. What is the use of plenty of AoW cards if they serve mainly to get the activation card you don't have in your hand ?
4/ Typhon - I found him very powerful but costly. I am now wondering if the 6 activations are not overpowered.

Leads:
- as someone suggested, tornadoes mighty throw effects could be resolved by the opponent when they affect your own units - so Ketos weakness (move) would remain
- petrification (but you need to come to contact - not easy with all this wind)
- nerf Ketos down with either AoW cards required or limit the curse of the sea attacks to human-size units (troops & heroes)

Remark : Titans are considered as Gods for every aspect. It was clear when they were introduced in the KS so we should consider God-Killer or Marsyas' ability to apply to them. Rules & dashboards will probably be updated to make that clear.

side note: tornadoes seems great in a lava map Twisted Evil
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Biel
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 9:36 am

Telgar wrote:
2/ Sisyphus - I don't get how to play/how to use the unit ; it looks like a unit you don't want to put on the map, but you have to spend your activation cards at one point or another
You d'ont have to spend his activation cards. You can just keep them in hand all the game.
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 9:49 am

@Telgar
QW already checked with the design team, they have agreed that Typhon is overpowered. Therefore they'll replace the tornado with another ability, called Psychopath, looking forward to see the new dashboard.
Sisyphus is the best companion for high RP team, as he will give you 4 AoW, and no one want to kill him, so you can also use him as obstacle for any unit that you want to protect from ranged attack. You only need to discard ANY card in your hand when he die (if really your opponent got nothing better to do), which can be any card so in my case I'll throw the troop cards =)
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 9:53 am

Biel wrote:
Telgar wrote:
2/ Sisyphus - I don't get how to play/how to use the unit ; it looks like a unit you don't want to put on the map, but you have to spend your activation cards at one point or another
You don't have to spend his activation cards. You can just keep them in hand all the game.

I don't get your answer. What do you do when your deck is exhausted and you have only Sisyphus activation cards remaining in your hand ?
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 10:02 am

clarenceooi wrote:
QW already checked with the design team, they have agreed that Typhon is overpowered. Therefore they'll replace the tornado with another ability, called Psychopath, looking forward to see the new dashboard
Yes just saw the update on KS

clarenceooi wrote:
Sisyphus is the best companion for high RP team, as he will give you 4 AoW, and no one want to kill him, so you can also use him as obstacle for any unit that you want to protect from ranged attack. You only need to discard ANY card in your hand when he die (if really your opponent got nothing better to do), which can be any card so in my case I'll throw the troop cards =)
Why would no one want to kill him ? Is it a general comment or valid in your draft exemple ?
I agree for your short deck this is not an issue. Actually it is more a blessing at it allows you to discard useless activation cards from your hand/deck. That's actually my point : I don't get the unit because it is supposed to be a burden in your army, isn't it ? (the price to pay for so many AoW)

Whatever the change to Typhon, I believe you raised a very valid point with short/fast deck and 2 activations limit per turn - so the opponent can't use all the cards he has in hands after decks recycling. Spending extra AoW card can be done : Petrification or Zeus Lightning Bolt could be devastating. But a hand full of activations is of no use.
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 10:25 am

@Telgar: You can read the special power of Sisyphus, when he die, the owner only need to discard ANY one card to revive him, so you can never kill him. His attack is very weak, movement is slow, who will want to waste the activation to kill him since he is not a threat and can't be killed?
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clarenceooi
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 10:30 am

QTelgar: Yes, for those who have a large deck, he'll be spending a lot of AoW to search for the unit he want to activate, whereas those with short deck will not need so many AoW as almost all the cards in hand are good.
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Biel
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 12:06 pm

Telgar wrote:
Biel wrote:
Telgar wrote:
2/ Sisyphus - I don't get how to play/how to use the unit ; it looks like a unit you don't want to put on the map, but you have to spend your activation cards at one point or another
You don't have to spend his activation cards. You can just keep them in hand all the game.

I don't get your answer. What do you do when your deck is exhausted and you have only Sisyphus activation cards remaining in your hand ?
When your deck is exhausted, you just shuffle your discard pile and then draw 3 cards. So you have just to manage your AoW cards to don't be in the situation you have described.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 1:48 pm

After checking the stat cards last night, I feel like they are a lot of counters to the "bring 2 powerful units and activate them over and over" strategy. For example your army list would have a hard time against Persephone or even Hecate. Killing Sisyphus over and over is very easy (remember you can kill him several times a turn, and everytime his player has to discard) considering you use him as a shield against ranged attacks, and meaning you're discarding at least 2 cards a turn (1 everytime Hecate activates, 1 when Sisyphus dies). Against Persephone it's even worse: you'll discard 2 cards everytime Sisyphus dies. You're only drawing 1 card a turn. Now add Echo, and either you'll draw one Typhon/Ketos card but can't activate because of Echo ability, either you draw an aow card that you'll lose (even if you use it to draw 2 cards, as you'll discard at least 2 cards a turn).
I really think Sisyphus is a HUGE weakness when you don't have utility units that let you draw more cards, or when you can't protect him. Even when you won't have any more card in hand to discard, you'll have to discard from your deck. Meaning you'll cycle earlier and your opponent will draw the rest of his deck more often. I love Echidna, and her poison would mean game over for your army. Sisyphus will die over and over from it (the poison doesn't wear off when Sisyphus dies and gets back to life), making you discard 1 card everytime (2 with Persephone).
Without Sisyphus, your army list won't have enough art of war cards to be able to double activate. Even with him, you'll only draw an aow card every 3 turns (7 aow in your deck of 23 cards), so when you're describing your continuous double activation of Ketos and Typhon, I have doubts.
You also seem to think letting your opponent draw a ton of cards doesn't matter, because he'll only be able to activate 2 units anyway, that you think will be less efficient than Ketos+Typhon. But you forget that having a lot of activation cards in hand also allows your opponent to retaliate. That means your opponent will have 4 attacks a turn (2 during activation, 2 with retaliates) against the 2 you'll have (at best). Also, there are some units that are VERY powerful when you have a constant influx of aow cards like your opponent would get (Chiron for example). Finally, a lot of units have the Leader talent or a way to activate a 3rd unit in a turn.
Also, as you'll be starved for aow cards (I don't get how you can always double activate AND spend an aow card to search through your deck, when you'll only draw 1 aow every 3 turns...), Oedipus and Echo would devastate your units. Oedipus is invincible against units with 0 strategy (like Typhon and Ketos) unless you spend 2 aow, and Echo requires you to spend an aow card to activate a unit near her.
So try fighting your brother with this list for example:
- Persephone
- Echidna (especially powerful against Ketos)
- Echo
- Diomedes
- Toxotoi
- Myrmidons
Activate Persephone, range attack at Sisyphus, use Leader to activate Toxotoi, shoot at Sisyphus. If he dies, your opponent discards 2 cards (and you draw one). Now if you have an aow for a double activation, send Echidna on him to try to one shot him and poison him (another 2 cards discarded by your opponent and 1 drawn for you). Don't be afraid to have your troops killed, as it means your opponent discards and you draw. Then when your opponent is empty handed, just bring Echo nearby and it's game over.

Now if you want to beat him with brute force and not those discard shenanigans, you can try Gaia and Echidna, with Aeacus and the Sphynx for example. Against 0 strategy units like Typhon and Ketos, the Sphynx is a beast. Aeacus would let you send Ketos back to its deployment zone (assuming Typhon brought him along using its tornadoes). As your brother has no unit to send all over the map to chase Gaia's roots, she'll regenerate 2 life a turn, making her better than Typhon in combat in the long run. Or send Typhon back to its deployment and use Echidna to destroy Ketos.

But I do agree that Ketos ability is poorly worded. My opinion is that the intent was to make him a hero killer, and so its extra attacks should only be usable against heroes. Would be logical considering the rest of the text of its abilities.
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PostSubject: Re: Ultimate army list I have now!   28th February 2017, 3:53 pm

I trust in "ooi" brothers's analysis on the fact that 2 activations per turn rule create problems.
My suggestion is testing a variant rule that say something like :
"Activate any numbers of different units in a turn for a total amount of 6 RP, increasing to 8 RP by discarding an AoW card".
Any ability that say activate up to 3 units increase to 12 RP (or 10 i dont know).
Any ability that cancel use of AoW for second unit cancel use of AoW for the 8 RP.
Problem (and perhaps advantage) of this variant is that if you activate a Titan, il's your only activation in the turn and cost an AoW card which seem thematic too.
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