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 Beta rules v2.1

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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Beta rules v2.1   31st December 2016, 9:25 pm

As yesterday, I've uploaded the new rules to my blog so you don't have to log in.

https://quirkworthy.com/2016/12/31/mythic-battles-beta-v2-1/

Thanks for all your comments so far - lots of great ideas. I've locked the last thread so we can start fresh here.
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WTFGamer
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   31st December 2016, 11:09 pm

I think there may be a typo in the following line. "Almost every unit in Mythic Battles:Pantheon has one or more talents, most commonly 3."

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RichC
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   31st December 2016, 11:18 pm

@QW,
Just wanted your thoughts on the turn sequence I put forward in the 2.0 thread?
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Ken
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   31st December 2016, 11:28 pm

Would it make sense to include powers in the Turn Sequence?

For example, something like "B2e - In addition to 0-2 simple actions, the player may also use any powers with the Hand symbol now."
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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 12:09 am

@Ken - I think powers are best defined outside the turn sequence. When they can be used is fairly simple, and doesn't really need to complicate the already fairly involved table.

@Rich C - I like some of your changes, and am not so keen on others. That's why I'm still pondering Smile

What particular benefits do you think it brings?

@WTFGamer - where's the typo?

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Ryo
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 12:27 am

I enjoy reading beta rules. The list of keywords was great and clear. Thank you for your great work!

Here are some feelings about the beta rule v2.1.

1. Adjacent
I feel that "adjacent" needs to be defined as a keyword.

2. Leader Talent
As an effect of Leader Talent, the Active player or the Allied player may activate their unit. It is better to clarify whether the Activation is counted against the maximum number of Activations in a Turn.

I wish this point would be clarified.

3. Range 0 and Range 1+
In the case of "Attacks at Range 1+" in Archer and "Range 0 Attacks" in Torment, these Ranges mean the distance between the attacker and the target.

In this case, I think that it is better to use another term (such as Distance), since Range is also used as a stat name.

4. Ruin or Tree models
I think that “a ruin model” means a column miniature or a broken column miniature. Would you clarify it in the later section?

By the way, I like the updated Mighty Throw (the effect of forcing an enemy unit to drop Omphalos).
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RichC
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 12:34 am

@QW,
First off let me say as a programmer I enjoyed what you had done with the turn order. The main benefit I saw was you could split and have a primary and secondary action phase that were that they were now the same. This would help the player understand what is happening in an activation phase is the same. Also the benefit of simplifying while remaining precise. My thought was to try to keep the clarity and precision you had but simplify and improve readability for people who would not be familiar with the game or are new to games. The flow was good but having the branch in the middle with that many layers to your flow seemed a little cumbersome for readability. My wording was trying to reflect what I see in other game guides/instructions.

I realize Athena breaks this rule that could be handled simply on her Dashboard by saying something like. “If Athena is activated during your Primary Activation you may ….. During your turn you may have a Third Activation Phase. Extra activations do not require Art of War cards”
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 12:41 am

I would like to make a suggestion to the phrasing of the Guard talent.
Instead of "If a friendly unit in the same area as this unit is attacked, you may change the target of the Attack to this unit."
My suggestion is to separate the two subjects, "friendly unit" and "this unit" because it can get confusing as to who is being attacked. So change to:
If a friendly unit is attacked in the same area as this unit, you may change the target of the attack to this unit.
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Denarius
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 1:21 am

Another (unrelated) note about style and this sentence: "Almost every unit in Mythic Battles:Pantheon has one or more talents, most commonly 3." Common journalistic style for numbers is to spell out numbers from one to nine, and to use numerals for 10 and higher. Will such a consistent set of style rules be applied to the rules?

Second, I noticed in the 2.1 Beta that numerous words are italicized, yet the introduction only points out the type convention for bolded words. It may be worthwhile covering the use of italics also.

This is great stuff. Can't wait to spend more time with it, and to see it develop!
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WTFGamer
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 1:24 am

@QW - My bad. Reading the rules without the dashboards in front of me, I wasn't able to make sense of the sentence. Now I get that you are referring to the number of talents a unit tends to have.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 6:25 am

Ryo wrote:



3. Range 0 and Range 1+
In the case of "Attacks at Range 1+" in Archer and "Range 0 Attacks" in Torment, these Ranges mean the distance between the attacker and the target.



We still have not a definition of range. I'd say range is somewhat the "maximum number of areas of distance that the mini can choose a target to attack", but well writen XD
With this definition, you use both concepts toghether (distance to target and maximum available distance for the mini to attack) and so both terms that you are suposing separated could both mean the same or even be both part of the way range is explained.
And, just in case, in my opinion we don't need "distance" to be a game term, as the real world term works nice.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 6:37 am

@QW

In initiative, attack should be in bold, isn't it?
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Grediel
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 9:57 am

I don't wanna look like an idiot but for the live of me I don't know where are the rules to download, I go to the link and I can't find any download link. just text and an ad. please help I really wanna give feedback.
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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 10:56 am

@Grediel - thinking about it, the name is a bit confusing. I'll change it next time.

The link is on the blog, in the middle of the post: mbp-beta-2-1-forum

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TontonFranz
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 12:34 pm

In "Block": No enemy unit can Claim an Omphalos in this area
It's still a little confusing. Is it "No enemy unit in this area can claim an Omphalos" , or "No enemy unit can claim an Onphalos that is in this area"? In other words, if I'm a Gem collector in the same area, can I claim an Omphalos from an adjacent area? Or if I'm a Gem collector in an adjacent area, can I claim the Omphalos in the area where the unit with Block is?
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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 1:03 pm

In the Block description, it is the omphalos that is "in this area", not the unit. It is written this way specifically to cover Gem Collectors outside this area not being able to take it.

Perhaps it would be clearer if it said "No enemy unit can Claim an Omphalos that is in this area."
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 1:16 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
Perhaps it would be clearer if it said "No enemy unit can Claim an Omphalos that is in this area."

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Idea

So minor a change, but it does make it clearer.
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molik
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 1:43 pm

Stats are always written in italics with a capital letter - so are the simple and complex actions => confusing

Assault - rolls in the second potentially adding to those from the first - the second roll assault can be unnecessary or a blank in the second assault can invalidate the first roll for a fail result and not adding a 0.

Area - bordered by a closed white line containing exactly one number designating its unit's maximum limit

A player may activate a maximum of 2 units in his turn, unless the powers or special rules state otherwise (otherwise, there will be endless questions from newbies about Athena in the forums. Better to state it clearly here)

Action phase sequence seems incomplete without description of alternative use of AoW cards and it makes certain requirements impossible. For instance, a player draws one card and finds that he has only AoW card(s) in his hand. Therefore he can't proceed to activate a unit and is in conflict with the text "The active player must complete each step, in order". But he can use one of his AoW cards to take 2 from the deck or go looking for that one he wants and then proceed to activate it. However, this possibility is not possible with the turn sequence as currently written.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 2:15 pm

Quote :
Leader
At the end of this unit’s activation, you may choose a friendly unit of troops in
its area. Its owner may search their deck for an activation card for that unit and
add it to their hand.

"you may choose a friendly unit of troops in its area."

I think that could be clarified a bit. Which area? The "leader" troop or the friendly unit of troops area?

I don't even really have a great suggestion either.

But something like  "you may choose a friendly unit of troops that are in the same area(as the unit with leader)."

type of thing?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 2:36 pm

After reading the 2.1 version of the rules, I would like to point out the following. These are things that perhaps someone new, like me, might notice:

1. Perhaps a more solid definition for "keywords"? what they are and what categories of keywords there are. For instance: "Keywords are terms used to identify and define specific mechanisms of the game. The are used in: a) scenarios, b) powers, c) talents, d) core rules, e) game aid, and f) starting guide. There are X different types of keywords: a) terrain, b) unit, c) card, d) turn sequence, and so on.

2. Keyword "area": are all areas on the map marked by a "white" line? are there ever going to be areas that are marked by a different color? perhaps for game purposes?

3. Rules hierarchy. I find this to be extremely helpful. THANK YOU! However, I absolutely disagree with the ruling after the priority list. Deciding on a crucial moment in the game based solely on active player priority is not good for me --this is why I hate those war-games that do this, and why I love the idea of retaliation (no keyword for this?!). I would prefer to have a solid priority list for powers and talents: perhaps, titans, gods, heroes, monsters, troops? It would make sense to me for a titan's power to be stronger than a similar one by a hero.

4. Talents. Please explain in the keyword and/or the section on talents, where these are found on the dashboard. (This has been done for the powers, but I am confused which are the powers and which the talents). I am certain there will be a visual prompt to clarify things, but I find a properly worded identification equally illuminating.

5. One last request for now, although I am not certain of the extent to which this is possible. Please try to avoid pronoun use. This is a manual. And sentences should be short, clear, and direct.If something creates confusion --and I see a lot so far-- it is better to cut the sentence into two smaller ones. In this way, the necessity of the syntax should clarify most problems.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 2:37 pm

Quote :
Cards can only be discarded from the player’s hand.

Not always =)). Check Paris power for example.

Quote :
B/2) Activate a unit.


I prefere "Activate a unit (or not, then go to C1)", because i can choose to play my turn, draw 1 card, then discard 1 AoW to draw 2 card, 1 AoW to search a card, then end my turn. In this case i didn't activate any units but use AoW to get some control on my game. (This way it's like to have 2 more cards in hand but i choose one and is turn my deck faster (sometime its good to do so, even more if you have Pandora in your army xD (when a new cycle start, the ennemy will have more card in hand for sure and then use pandora power to make him discard half of his hand "evil")

Quote :
a. Select a unit that has not yet activated in this turn

O_o; ? We are at the begining of the turn, so how i could activate an unit before this time ?
Is Retalite part of my next turn ? and then i can't activate this unit on my next turn ?
I don't get the point of this "that has not yet activated in this turn".

I ll check Talents later. So cya later
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 2:54 pm

I think a definition of "hand limit" would be useful. And what the hand limit is, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 4:22 pm

B)3)c.ii: "A unit that is taking a complex action cannot use any talents or powers during their activation".

I think this needs rewording. Many passive powers aren't really being "used", this may cause confusion. Like Atlas or Ajax - apparently they don't have to pay their usual penalty for being activated.

Better would be "all this units talents and powers are inactive for the rest of the turn" or something like that. A bit similar to what petrifying/rapture does.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 7:37 pm

Teowulff wrote:
B)3)c.ii: "A unit that is taking a complex action cannot use any talents or powers during their activation".
I think this needs rewording. Many passive powers aren't really being "used", this may cause confusion. Like Atlas or Ajax - apparently they don't have to pay their usual penalty for being activated.

Agree and same for B)2)c.ii. Perhaps a precision like : "including the powers that take place at the end of activation"
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.1   1st January 2017, 8:34 pm

Hi Jake,

Shouldn't Stats and Action be keywords too ? Offence, Defence, Range, Move, Vitality, Move, Attack, Claim an Omphalos, Run, Absorb an Omphalos, and Enter the Battlefield.

Active player: the player whose turn it is. There is exactly 1 active player at all times.

Active unit: the unit whose activation it is. There is never more than 1 active unit at a time, though there can be none.

I like the idea of a Divinity keyword to take into account Gods + Titans, this could be clearer this way. The Titan keyword as written can be misleading.


Rules hierarchy : you should put figures.
1) Scenario special rule
2) Power description
3) Talent description
4) Core rules in this book
5) Game aid
6) Starting guide

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