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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:12 pm

Hi folks,

this is the first slice of the beta 2 version of the rules. Note that it is (deliberately) far from complete. I want to get you to focus on each section as it's uploaded so we can scrutinise everything properly, rather than drown in the whole thing at once, and potentially miss something important.

Until a new section is uploaded assume it works exactly as in the PnP version.

Tomorrow (and every day till all the rules are online) I'll be incorporating all your feedback, and adding a new section. So each day the beta will get a bit better, and a bit bigger Smile

Before we start, it's worth saying that we now intend to separate the starting guide from the core rulebook. This allows the starting guide to hand-hold more, and the core rules to not worry about teaching at all. Instead this core rulebook is simply a reference. It is, therefore, a bit more terse, and less friendly and chatty.

Note also that this is a pdf from a Word doc. Less pretty, but more practical at present.

We start with the 2 biggest changes from the previous beta: keywords, and the detailed turn sequence.

As I don't seem to be able to upload files here directly, I've stuck it on my website at: https://quirkworthy.com/2016/12/30/mythic-battles-beta-v2-0/
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:25 pm

Haha shameless plug there QW? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:28 pm

First question I saw with this draft:
In the "complex actions" keyword definition, you list only running and absorbing an omphalos. Wasn't entering the battlefield a complex action as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:30 pm

Just to add a little explanation.

The main problem with the MBP beta 1 rules wasn't the game itself, but the clarity of the explanation. In particular, the way that all the powers and core rules interacted. What we lacked was a degree of accuracy in terms and times which would allow us to be very specific about when exactly an effect happened, and how it interacted with another.

By using keywords with specific game definitions, and by describing them all in one place, we gain a glossary of agreed and well-defined terms that we can draw on everywhere else. The more detailed turn structure works alongside the keywords to allow a greater degree of accuracy in describing when a power takes effect.

As more is added, and revised powers are unveiled, you will see how this acts as the core of a more robust and clearer set of rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:32 pm

@Cryocat - not really. More laziness Smile

I would rather have uploaded the doc here, but can't work out how. Not sure it's possible (though strangely I can upload pics and videos). The last time we used Dropbox and Google docs, but they require log ins and people complained. My blog doesn't Smile

@KerenRhys - well spotted, and quite correct Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:35 pm

Area attack: targets both friendly and enemy units, but not allied units?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:39 pm

Some thoughts after a first pass. Keywords first, then the turn structure in the next post.


"Area: an irregularly-shaped space on the game map."

Could this be more precise to say that the space is defined by borders?


"Complex action: the actions Run, and Absorb an Omphalos"

What about deploying onto the board?


"Pass: this is when a player chooses not to take a turn. Instead, they draw 2 cards
from their deck."

Should 'draw' and 'deck' be in bold in this sentence? Similarly for some entries which reference unit types.



"Power: one of a series of skills or abilities that aid a unit in battle."

"Talent: one of a series of skills or abilities that aid a unit in battle"

Are 'skill' and 'ability' gameplay terms? They don't appear in the list yet they are of a type which suggests a game play term, especially when both are used with an 'or' which implies they are two different types of gameplay effects.


"Recruitment Points: the number of points that a player can spend to recruit his
army.
RP: the abbreviation of Recruitment Points."

This seems like it could be combined to one entry (Recruitment Points (RP):...)


"Stat: a game value used to describe the relative usefulness of a unit. Stats are
always written in italics with a capital letter. The stats are: Combat Value (CV),
Defence, Range, Move, and Vitality."

I'm guessing that Combat Value has replaced Attack to prevent confusion with the attack action. All the stats are otherwise a single word and not reduced to an acronym, and this stands out as a result. Would 'Combat' without the 'Value' be better? Whilst you could argue the word may imply attack and defence, the same would apply to Combat Value also.


"Unit: a distinct game element. A unit may be defined as Titan, God, hero, monster, or troops."

Why are some unit types upper case and others are not?


Last edited by Ben Clapperton on 30th December 2016, 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:42 pm

I like the idea of the glossary.

The turn sequence is clear, but to be honest, and it may just be my IT background making me say this, it is a prime candidate for a flowchart diagram to illustrate how it works, and avoid those "jump to step Cn" sentences. Arrows for the win. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:53 pm

"C) End of Turn Phase
1) Discard 1 AoW card to recall 1 unit of troops, or go to C2."


I think the word 'may' could be inserted and the final clause removed as you can always go to C2 regardless of whether you do this. So "You may discard 1 AoW card to recall 1 unit of troops."




"Take 1-2 simple actions with that unit."


Is taking 0 simple actions a possibility, or must it always take at least one? Whilst it'll rarely be the case I won't want to do any actions, I could theoretically decide to activate Odysseus and do nothing with him so that I get the card draw and want to leave him put so I can activate a unit in his area without spending the AoW card. If there were no enemy units for him to attack nor omphalos for him to claim in his area, am I forced to move him if I activate him?


How does Ares' Frenzy interact with the turn structure? I understand how it plays on the table, but how does it interact with the precise structure we now have?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:56 pm

More excellent points. Thank you all Smile

Area attacks should target everyone by default.

Skills and abilities are not game play terms, hence their not appearing on the list. They're simply words that people have used to define powers/talents.

I am, like you, a little unhappy with CV, but we need something that isn't attack (because of the confusion), and I wasn't convinced that Combat stood on its own. Though it is growing on me.

Titan and God are capitalised because they are often are, even though they aren't proper names. In general, I've tried to avoid capitalising words where I can, and should probably revert these too.

Flowcharts - I think a diagram for this turn sequence would help too. But it needs to work to start with, so let's knock any kinks out before we go to fancy graphics Smile

Not sure about the suggestion for C1 as it doesn't fit the style of the other steps, all of which tell you where to go next.

0-2 simple actions should be possible.

Thanks again.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 8:59 pm

In 2v2 games : if Allied Unit is not a Friendly Unit, you can't activate allied troops with Leader Talent and you can't absorb an Omphalos carried by allied units.
On BGG forum we thought Allied units are Friendly units as our Own units. Can you confirm they are not ?
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Ben Clapperton
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 9:02 pm

The turn structure instructions say that you follow the steps in order except where directed otherwise. The turn structure itself only directs you to a step if you have to skip steps, or you are making a choice between two or more options. Neither of those seem to apply at C1. You would always go to C2 regardless of whether you do C1, so it seems odd that going to C2 is offered as an alternative to doing C1.

I maybe could have been clearer on the use of 'skills' and 'abilities' in the talents and powers entries. They seem like they are game terms, especially as they are presented as two distinct things (X or Y). If they are to be retained, the perhaps the word 'represent' could be inserted. So, 'Powers represent the skills or abilities....'
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 9:04 pm

I thought that some of the scenarios needed to distinguish between allied and friendly, and am checking. with Benoit. if I can incorporate allied within friendly at all times then I'd be very happy to make that simplification.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 9:23 pm

I'm now told that apparently there is a way of uploading documents here directly, we just have to find the right dial to change the settings. Currently I don't have the right permissions...

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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 10:30 pm

Quote :
God : a type of unit. Gods and Titans are the only types of unit that can recruit an army.

Recruit should be in bold
And what about the 3v1 mode ??? when 1 god and his army face to 3 armies with monster, heros, and troops ? Those 3 ennemy can recruit too... or?

Quote :
Recall: the process of summoning a unit of troops to the same area as your God.

... or Titan ?

Quote :
Stat: a game value used to describe the relative usefulness of a unit. Stats are always written in italics with a capital letter. The stats are: Combat Value (CV), Defence, Range, Move, and Vitality.

What about "Strengh" instead of "Combat Value"
Then we have regular stat with Str/Def/Rng/Mov/Vit or more shortly S/D/R/M/V.
And why point the fast to use italic and Caps ? any other way to use those word ?

Troops: a type of unit. Troops are represented on the board by a group of 2+ miniatures. All miniatures belonging to a unit of troops must be in the same area at all times.

You could had that each mini is 1 vitality point and when a Troop get wounded, each wound put off one miniature. When no miniature left, the Troop is dead.

Quote :
Recall: the process of summoning a unit of troops to the same area as your God.

You should specify a bit more cause this unit Troop must be enter the battlefield at least one time during this current game. So you can recall alive troop on the battlefield or some who already die on the battlefield during this game.

--------------------------------

I think you forget to explain some keyword like : Round, Tactic/Manoeuvre, Retaliate, Evade, Search, Army ...

In the sequence of play,
Where are the way to use Tactic/Manoeuvre during a turn ?
When can i use Talent or Power ?
What about the retaliate sequence and when claim a retaliate ?

When i read the sequence i must decide to pass before drawing my first card !!!
So i can't draw one card and decide if i passor not, and draw another one if i pass, or play my turn.
(Hard choice before drawing a single card)

Sending part by part the rules like this is a bit strange cause we don't have a global view of your rework. It like wanted to sum up a book without knowing the complet story...

For exemple : if i use a complexe action with my god, all Talent and Power are unable. Unable until when ? next owner player turn ? end of owner turn ? end of God activation ? next (this) God activation ? ... ?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 11:15 pm

I like what I see so far. The rubber hits the road when some of the talents and powers get some attention.

I've never liked how the Leader talent and the Born Leader power detail how to activate a troop. They make no mention of needing to use an activation card. Only the lack of an AoW gets detailed. I understand that the idea is, "if it isn't listed, go with the defaults." But that leaves the door open to for an argument I'd prefer not to have.

There is also the notion that you can use a part of a power and ignore the rest. If you don't have the troops' activation card in the deck, that's fine. If you have it in your hand already, you can continue to activate the troop. Or, you could add a troop's activation card to your hand and not activate the troop, thus saving the activation for another unit that would require an AoW card.

Finally, there's the fact that these 2nd activations do count toward the 2 activation limit per turn. Thus making that part of the talent or power useless if the unit with the ability is already the 2nd activation of the turn. This fact caused a 30 minute pow-wow as my group debated the merits of powers that can't be fully used in "normal" play.

It's hard to look at things like the turn sequence and not consider how talents and powers would interact. They are related and it's difficult to make suggestions for one bit without knowing how the other is intended to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   30th December 2016, 11:23 pm

More useful comments, thank you all Smile

I appreciate that this is an unusual way to do things. I've always shown full rules before, and unfortunately that's got a number of problems. The chief one is that whole sections tend to get ignored by the majority of readers. On the whole if you upload a full set of rules a couple of issues will dominate discussion and the rest will be largely ignored.

So this is an experiment Smile

And yes, I appreciate that things will make more complete sense when you have all of it. We'll get there soon enough. I expect that this staged approach will make those who follow it see the earlier rules in more than one light, which should bring out more useful points to clarify.

We'll see...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 12:14 am

A suggestion for the Turn Sequence

A) Start of Turn Phase
1) Effects of powers that were triggered in your previous turn and last for 1 round end now.
2) Pass or Play. If you pass draw two cards then end your turn immediately
B) Draw
1. Draw 1 Card from your Deck
C) Primary Action Phase (this allows distinction between the two possible action phases and clarification of redundancy see steps below.)
1. Discard 1 activation card for the unit you wish to activate.
2. Choose a simple or complex action to take with the unit, if you take a Complex Action resolve that action and proceed to the Secondary Action Phase.
3. Resolve any powers that occur at the start of the unit’s activation.
4. You may take up to 2 simple actions with that unit.  
5. Resolve any powers that occur at the end of the unit’s activation

(…d-f stay the same. Just move up in order and everything is up one level in the hierarchy now. )
D) Secondary Action Phase.
The active player may choose to take a second action phase if they do they must discard 1 AoW card.
1. Select a unit that has not yet activated in this turn and Discard 1 activation card for that unit.
2. Choose a simple or complex action to take with the unit, if you take a Complex Action resolve that action and proceed to the end of Turn Phase.
3. Resolve any powers that occur at the start of the unit’s activation.
4. You may take up to 2 simple actions with that unit.  
5. Resolve any powers that occur at the end of the unit’s activation
E) End of Turn Phase
1. You may Discard 1 AOW to recall 1 unit of troops.
2. The active player passes to the left and that player becomes the active player.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 1:03 am

"Troops: a type of unit. Troops are represented on the board by a group of 2+ miniatures. All miniatures belonging to a unit of troops must be in the same area at all times."

- By this definition when a unit of troops is reduced to 1 miniature it is no longer a troop?

"Wounded: a unit has been wounded when its Vitality has been reduced by a successful attack. If an attack does not reduce the target unit’s Vitality then it has not been wounded."

- From memory at least one unit could take a wound to do some special affect. This wound would not have been from an attack and by the above definition the unit would not be wounded?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 1:05 am

Should "army" be a keyword?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 1:18 am

"Power: one of a series of skills or abilities that aid a unit in battle. Powers are often unique. A unit’s powers are explained on its dashboard."
And
"Talent: one of a series of skills or abilities that aid a unit in battle. Talents are not unique. The complete list of talents is on page XXX."

- Might be better:
"Power: an often unique skill or ability that aids a unit in battle. A unit’s powers are explained on its dashboard."
And
"Talent: a non unique skill or ability that aids a unit in battle. A units's talents are listed on it's dashboard and explained on page XXX.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 1:25 am

"Battle" may be another option for "Combat Value" or "Combat". I also think Strength as suggested by Garshell would make a fine Stat.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 2:07 am

NZJohnnyG wrote:
Should "army" be a keyword?

Maybe not a keyword but at least got a definition.
if God can recruit an army so :
Army = all Monsters, heros and Troops own by a player.

God and Titan are not part of the army if they recruit.
But if player recruit an army, then Army = all units own by a player.

And then in a 3v1 mode, the player alone will recruit an Army with 1 God and some units. The other 3 players will recruit an Army with any units except God or Titan.

I m sure you will find a better way to write this, but the point is here.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 2:10 am

This is a list of some consistency issues, mostly about bolding, that I've come across:

Allied: last "allied" should be bolded.

Area attack: If you are keeping "allied" in addition to "friendly" then "allied" should be included in the units affected by an area attack.

Attack: The first "unit" and the next 2 "attack"s are not bolded.

God: "recruit" should be bolded.

Owned/owner: "units" should be bolded.

Pass: "deck" should be bolded.

Recall: "unit", "troops", "area" and "God" should be bolded.

Recruit: "unit" should be bolded.

Recruitment Points: "recruit" should be bolded.

Simple action: "Attack" should be bolded.

Scenario: "units" should be bolded.

Stat: the first "stats" should be bolded.

Titan: "recruit" and the second "Titans" should be bolded.

Troops: the first "Troops" and the second "unit" should be bolded.

B) Action Phase:
1) "deck" should be bolded.
2) b. "unit" should be bolded.
3) a. "turn" should be bolded.
b. "unit" should be bolded.

C) End of Turn Phase:
1) "card" should be bolded.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules 2.0   31st December 2016, 9:34 am

If Gods and Titans follow the same rules (absorb omphalos, recall troops, etc...), you could call them both Divinity.

Divinity : a type of unit. Gods and Titans are the Divinities. They usually lead your army and Titans usually reduce the amount of RP available to recruit your army.

"The only types of unit that can recruit an army." : no, as Garshell said, in 3v1 game, one side have no divinity.
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