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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: 2.9 Beta version   13th February 2017, 7:01 pm

Latest version of the rules:

https://quirkworthy.com/2017/02/13/mythic-battles-v2-9/

This is going to layout, so it can still be tweaked. However, thanks to your sterling efforts so far, I don't think there will be a lot to fix Smile

In addition to what's here, there will be a components section at the front, and a "bestiary" of core box units at the back, along with an index.

As always, if you spot something, let me know!


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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   13th February 2017, 10:18 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
Latest version of the rules:

https://quirkworthy.com/2017/02/13/mythic-battles-v2-9/

This is going to layout, so it can still be tweaked. However, thanks to your sterling efforts so far, I don't think there will be a lot to fix Smile

In addition to what's here, there will be a components section at the front, and a "bestiary" of core box units at the back, along with an index.

As always, if you spot something, let me know!

Here are a few points:

Recruit an Army (Page 3):
If recruitment of gods is made clockwise, doesn't this mean that in teamed play (2 vs 2), the first team gets to choose both divinities first ? This seems a little unfair.

Setup the table (Page 4):
Perhaps add 3a) 'Make sure vitality is set to maximum on dashboards' ?

Turn sequence (Page 5):
B2 and C2 do not need to mention 'from your hand' (the sentence before section A already implies this).

Inactive Players (Page 6):
Can the same troop be activated twice by a friendly owner (via Leadership) ?

Choose a Target (Page 16):
The first sentence of the final paragraph (after 'insert range diagram') is a bit confusing - they are attacking from the area they are in, they have no choice. How about '... may choose whether they want to make a range 1 attack, or attack as if ...' ?

Retaliation (page 17):
'A unit cannot retaliate more than once per turn'. Is that once during the turn in which he is being attacked, or only once between each of its turns ?  (Perhaps I am being too pedantic ?)

Manoeuvres (Page 25):
'Manoeuvres are special actions that are in addition to a players turn, and may happen outside it.' Not true for all manoeuvres - special attacks are an invocation of power (the fifth case) but are basically just attacks, an integral part of the activation rather than an addition.

As a  final point - I don't see anything in the text that actually describes special attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   13th February 2017, 10:26 pm

Under "ACTIONS pg 8:

Quote :
A unit cannot ATTACK after it has taken a WALK action in the same activation.

That should say the opposite as it does down in "WALK Simple Actions" on pg 9:

Quote :
A unit cannot ATTACK then WALK in the same activation.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 1:37 pm

@Malamute - a classic error on my part. Fixed now.

@Elrich - thanks for these. Some very good points.

Recruiting an army - seating order is discussed in the scenario book, along with the alternate Z player sequence.

Set up the table - good idea to add vitality.

Turn sequence - agreed.

Inactive players - no. Under limit of actions, it says that a unit cannot be activated more than once in a turn. This applies to any unit in any turn.

Choose a target - I'm confused. It already says that: "...may choose whether they want to ATTACK it from the area they are in (requiring Range 1), or as if they...

Retaliation - it means what it says. Only once per turn. There is no qualifier on whose turn that is, so it's once in every turn. I think you're confusing yourself by over-reading. It's as simple as it says.

Manoeuvres - true. Changed it to: "Manoeuvres are special actions that modify or add to a player’s turn, and may happen outside it."

Special attacks are defined in the game terms at the end.


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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 1:44 pm

Just some points about terrain type :

Rift : put an sample just near this explanation, with a god movement and a troop movement to walk across this area.

Stairs : Stairs are like an upper rocks but in stair, all units can go in. But stair go to an upper or down ground, so how considering the upper ground (Cliff border)? And if a map will be upper again so it could be Cliff border with a single striff for the first level 2 stiff for the level 2 etc.
I think you ll find a way better than mine but the point is here.

Quote :
Swamp : Terrain effect: the only action possible for units in this area is to WALK or RUN a maximum of 1 area.
Who can WALK and Who can RUN ? Why RUN if i can WALK and then use another simple action. Not clear to me.

Quote :
A unit cannot retaliate against terrain effects
And against poison attack (effect)?

Omphalos card: Could we spend an omphalos card to give 1 vitality back to my partner divinity instead of my divinity ? nothing say this in the rules.


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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 2:30 pm

Garshell wrote:

Quote :
Swamp : Terrain effect: the only action possible for units in this area is to WALK or RUN a maximum of 1 area.
Who can WALK and Who can RUN ? Why RUN if i can WALK and then use another simple action. Not clear to me.


If you lost Vitality points and then your movement is "0", then you have to RUN if you want to move.

Quote :

Omphalos card: Could we spend an omphalos card to give 1 vitality back to my partner divinity instead of my divinity ? nothing say this in the rules.

Yes, we can spend an Omphalos card to heal the partner divinity (but I don't know if it's written in the rules, I had no time yet to read the V2.9).
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 2:35 pm

@QW - thanks for the new version. I am having a look now...

As I see there is a section on terrain including Lava (only present in Hephaistos IIRC), I ask again my previous question : what is the intention of the rulebook concerning add-ons and Stretch Goals ?
More precisely, where will these rules be available :
- divinity cards (SG)
- recruitment cards (SG)
- villagers (SG)
- naval combat (Poseidon)
- equipment cards (Hera)
(I may forget topics)

I believe that Titans (SG & Add-on), special terrain and aquatic units are already covered.

Some complex units may (?) also require more text that can be fit on the dashboard - on the top of my head, I think of Scylla (and her tentacles) and of the Dragon of Thebes (and the Spartoi)... What is your feeling ? (maybe covered in an on-line FAQ)
Also some special effects like charge, petrification or poison (shared by several units) if covered in the rulebook (as an annex for exemple), would limit the text on the (reduced) dashboards
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 2:50 pm

Telgar wrote:
@QW - thanks for the new version. I am having a look now...

As I see there is a section on terrain including Lava (only present in Hephaistos IIRC), I ask again my previous question : what is the intention of the rulebook concerning add-ons and Stretch Goals ?
More precisely, where will these rules be available :
- divinity cards (SG)
- recruitment cards (SG)
- villagers (SG)
- naval combat (Poseidon)
- equipment cards (Hera)
(I may forget topics)

I believe that Titans (SG & Add-on), special terrain and aquatic units are already covered.

Some complex units may (?) also require more text that can be fit on the dashboard - on the top of my head, I think of Scylla (and her tentacles) and of the Dragon of Thebes (and the Spartoi)... What is your feeling ? (maybe covered in an on-line FAQ)
Also some special effects like charge, petrification or poison (shared by several units) if covered in the rulebook (as an annex for exemple), would limit the text on the (reduced) dashboards

@peps: thx about the WALK RUN question. About the healing a team god by omphalos, its not in the rules.
@Telgar: +1 about your list and questions. I m curious about that too.
About some terrain rules in the main rules book. I prefere a full and complete rules book instead of any little one.
It would be great to have a beastbook to have all power for all units (SG, Add on and Ext include) explained carefully in detail.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 3:00 pm

An comprehensive "beastbook" would be complicated I guess as it wouldn't cover upcoming (if any) material (add-ons). But to get one as an online-provided PDF (updated with FAQ clarifications) would be nice...
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 3:18 pm

Some things:

Rulebook wrote:
• Use the search for a card manoeuvre.

Maybe redirecting to the Manoeuvre table could be useful here (up to this part, there's no mention of manoeuveres).

Rulebook wrote:
If a unit type (see page XXX) is described as ignoring terrain effects of a
particular terrain type, all paragraph(s) starting with “Terrain effect” are
considered not to exist. The terrain remains an obstacle if it normally is one.

What does this mean? I didn't quite understand it.

Rulebook wrote:
Resolving an ATTACK
Complete each step before moving on to the next.
a) Starting with the active player, the owners of both units declare any
talents or powers they will use in the ATTACK.
b) Calculate the effective Offence of the ATTACK.
c) Calculate the effective Defence of the target unit.
d) The ATTACKER must roll dice for the first assault.
e) The ATTACKER may roll dice for the second assault if the effective
Defence is 6 or more.
f) Apply any wounds to the target.

In f) it might be useful to state that this is the moment for powers such as Achilles' Endurance or Gorgon's Blood of the Gorgon to be declared.

Rulebook wrote:
An omphalos card counts as an art of war card. Whenever a rule mentions an art
of war card
, it also applies to an omphalos card.

The underlined part is, to me, extremely prone to confusion and does not even need to be there. It's clearly explained later that you can use omphalos cards as AoW cards, no need for this.

Rulebook wrote:
In addition to potentially causing wounds, whenever this unit ATTACKs, the
owner may discard blank results from the first assault to throw the target unit.

Adding a little "ONLY" after first assault might silence a few doubts before they even arise.

Rulebook wrote:
During a RUN action, a unit can enter a number of areas equal to, or less than, its
Movement +1. Each new area must be adjacent to the previous one.

Peps wrote:
If you lost Vitality points and then your movement is "0", then you have to RUN if you want to move.

Can you actually do that? If this is the case, it definetely needs to be stated. A "even if the unit has been left with 0 Movement Points" might be helpful here.


Also:

  • Is there a part of the rules where Stats are thouroughly described and where it is explained that you only apply the higher one of two bonuses applying to the same Stat? Should there be a Stat modifier section where every effect that could apply to stats is described and where it is explained for which of those modifiers the "higher one of two bonuses" rule should apply?

  • Describing the types of unit in the Moving section feels a little weird. I can see why it's there but I still believe it should have its own section.

  • In the Guard talent decription, it might be useful to redirect to the "Declare any Guard" paragraph contained in the Attacking section.

  • I still don't see what "Sneak Attack" has to do with its effect. This name might be much better for Mobility instead.


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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 3:27 pm

Hi - new here, so forgive me if I go over old ground. No worries if none of this is useful. This is a really clear set of rules, so my suggestions are only tinkering around the edges.

Suggestions from the Game Terms section:

** Deployment zone: the only areas of the map INTO which...  <<< "into" rather than "through", because "through" implies some kind of movement out of the area, to me

** Round: a collection of turns; during a round, each player has one turn (see page XXX)  <<< and the page number would refer to the "sequence of play" section, to avoid stating more details about how rounds work here in the definitions

** Unit: a distinct game element; each unit is part of an army. There are five types of unit, each unit is exactly one type: titan, god, hero, monster or troops. It is important to be aware of the difference between unit and miniature - in particular, that a troops unit is initially represented on the board by multiple miniatures (see "Troops").  [and I would remove the "titan/god = divinity" sentence; I suspect it's not needed here]

Suggestions (or questions) from the Talents section:

** Initiative: can I suggest that the beginning of this be trimmed to: "If this unit makes a retaliation, then..."  (i.e. removing "discards an activation card to") because when I first read this definition, I thought you had to discard an activation card to "activate" the Initiative talent. This is probably just me being a dummy, so feel free to ignore this, but retaliation is pretty well explained in its own section, so you might not need to repeat _how_ to retaliate here.

** Mighty Throw: Q: obviously, a unit cannot be thrown into a full area - but is it worth explicitly (and repetitively, but maybe usefully) stating that here?

** Mighty Throw: If there are no areas into which the unit can be thrown, then the effect is cancelled.  Q: is a claimed omphalos still dropped in this situation? The rules are unclear, I think.

** Mighty Throw: A unit may be thrown even if it has been destroyed by the ATTACK.  Q: I have no idea why this would be useful. There is no effect listed here that would make this a useful thing to do. The only effect of throwing a unit, apart from making it drop its omphalos, is to put the unit somewhere else - but a destroyed unit will be removed from the board in a moment - why bother throwing it? (I guess my suggestion would be to give at least one example of why throwing a destroyed unit would be useful. Obviously, there's some power or something that I'm not aware of.)

** Monster Slayer: Q: is it worth explicitly stating that blanks may be re-rolled? Probably just me being pedantic. A normal reader would assume you can re-roll blanks, I believe.

** Phalanx: Q: do multiple complete units of friendly troops stack? So, in an area with 2 complete units of friendly troops, this unit gains +2 O & D ? Assuming for a second it doesn't stack, perhaps add a sentence like: "This unit cannot gain more than +1 Offence and +1 Defence [in this way OR using Phalanx]."

** Sneak Attack:  Q: do multiple friendly units stack? So, in an area with 3 friendly units, this unit gains +3 O ?  See above for suggested extra sentence to clarify.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 3:56 pm

Divinity Cards have not been mentioned in the rules at all. Considering they are KS content they may not belong in the rules but will need a sheet for explaining them in the box.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 3:59 pm

More things.

These suggestions are from the ATTACK section:

Choose a Target:
Can I suggest making the following <alteration>:
A target is in Range if the ATTACKER's Range is equal to, or greater than, the shortest distance <from the ATTACKER to the target>. Count the distance the same way you count movement. You do not have to follow a straight line.
Further Q: I assume that all reasonable people reading the rules will not let terrain effects spoil their calculations of whether a target is in Range. I mention this because "the same way you count movement" could be interpreted so as to restrict certain Range-finding if the attacker cannot cross lava or water or something, or if something costs 2 movement points to cross. I know I'm just being pedantic here, so please ignore.

Choose a Target:
The paragraph that starts "If a target's area is full.." left me with the distinct impression that my unit with Range 0 can attack a unit in an adjacent area, if that area is full. Is this true? I suspect this paragraph could be helped by clarification, either way.

First Assault:
Current rulebook: Any dice that rolled 1-4 and are not set aside to modify results of the first assault may be saved to modify the results of the second assault.
I suggest adding: ", if there is one (there can only be a second assault if the effective Defence is 6 or more)."

These suggestions are for CLAIM and ABSORB:
The rules are very clear here, so this suggestion is very ignorable.
It is, however, a bit jarring to read "CLAIM is short for CLAIM an omphalos".
It is very clear, but abrupt.
A suggestion: "CLAIM is the action a unit takes to gain control of an omphalos."
Similarly: "ABSORB is the action a unit takes to consume an omphalos."
(If this idea is adopted, it might also apply to these terms in the Game Terms section)
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 4:14 pm

Just a few more suggestions:

Recruit an Army:
3 e Continue anticlockwise around the table as many times as NECESSARY for all players to spend all their RP. <<<< "necessary" is smoother english than "are needed", though the meaning was clear

Limit of Activations:
From the rulebook: In addition, in games with 3 or more players, the Leader talent my allow a player the option of activating further units from friendly armies SUGGEST ADDING: (but not from their own army).
I suggest adding this, because I assume my own army is a friendly army, so I assumed this talent would let me activate more of my own units.

Limit of Activations:
From the rulebook: A unit cannot activate more than once a turn.
Although this is perfectly clear, "activate" here is odd english. Instead: A unit cannot be activated more than once a turn.

Hope this was helpful!
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 4:25 pm

Orword wrote:

Rulebook wrote:
During a RUN action, a unit can enter a number of areas equal to, or less than, its
Movement +1. Each new area must be adjacent to the previous one.

Peps wrote:
If you lost Vitality points and then your movement is "0", then you have to RUN if you want to move.

Can you actually do that? If this is the case, it definetely needs to be stated. A "even if the unit has been left with 0 Movement Points" might be helpful here.

Sure you can.
And the rule is in line with the possibility to do that: "During a RUN action, a unit can enter a number of areas equal to, or less than, its Movement +1." -> if Movement=0; then you can RUN for 0+1 areas.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 4:25 pm

Okay here are my comments on 2.9

First general question I brought up before : there are references to active & permanent & passive Powers (and maybe other types). Could we have a comprehensive list of Power types ? I suppose there will be different icons for them (sandglass, lightning, etc...)... With the text-only rulebook this is a bit unclear (and the Glossary do not refer to any icons).

2.9 wrote:
Fireproof Units
There are fireproof units ? Cool ! (pun intended)

2.9 wrote:
All Units ignore obstacles when making a Range 1+ ATTACK if the target is a flying unit.
Thanks for the clarification.
Now it makes sense with the reverse rule (Flying units ignore obstacles when making an ATTACK at Range 1+).

2.9 wrote:
As long as the Guard is not destroyed, they can choose to use their talent to intervene and protect either or both units A and B.
I can't find the part where troops loose their talent when wounded. Did it change ?
...Well I guess it didn't change or the glossary should be updated:
2.9 wrote:
Complete: a unit of troops is complete while it has its full complement of miniatures, as listed on its troop card. A unit of troops must be complete in order to use its talents.
If this is still true, it should be more explicit. (under talents or wounds or both)

2.9 wrote:
Modifiers cannot reduce Offence or Defence below 0
minimum = 0 not 1 ? (for offence, 0 = no dice to attack ; for defence, what is the difference between 0 and 1 ?)

2.9 wrote:
Lava
Considering the description I believe units are only thrown in the area. I wondered if it could be interesting for a (non-fireproof) unit to voluntarily cross a "Lava - Dormant" area but as your opponent then chose where to move your unit, I guess it is never useful.
Did you consider 1 wound for Dormant and 2 wounds for Erupting ? (quicker resolution)

2.9 wrote:
Rift [...]divinities and monsters must not end their activation in this area. [...] Each rift area costs 2 of the unit’s Movement to enter.
So I believe there are not so many case where the skull path will be used as there are very few Divinities or monsters with move 3+ (or they should run). How does it resolves with Charge ? With Mighty Throw ? (I guess both can't be done) What about flying units ? As they are not affected by terrain, my understanding is that they may end their turn (hover) in a Rift. Right ?

2.9 wrote:
Stormy Seas (Aquatic)
I guess Aquatic is the type of terrain type (pun) and is intended for the application of the rule:
2.9 wrote:
If a unit type is described as ignoring terrain effects of a particular terrain type, [...]

2.9 wrote:
Stormy Seas (Aquatic): the only action possible for units in this area is to RUN a maximum of 1 area.
What does "in this area" means ? Does it refers to starting your turn here or crossing ? (as you have to choose your action before moving into the area)
Idem for Swamps obviously.

2.9 wrote:
Wall
no unit can enter this area by any means.
Except flying units, right ? Because they ignore terrain effects.

2.9 wrote:
Water (Aquatic)
Terrain effect: units in this area cannot use any talents.
Terrain effect: units in this area can only use passive or permanent powers.
That will require some thinking with dashboard analysis ^^
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 5:21 pm

Orword wrote:

Rulebook wrote:
If a unit type (see page XXX) is described as ignoring terrain effects of a
particular terrain type, all paragraph(s) starting with “Terrain effect” are
considered not to exist. The terrain remains an obstacle if it normally is one.

What does this mean? I didn't quite understand it.

It is a complicated way to say that aquatic units ignore aquatic terrain effects and fireproof units ignore lava effects ^^

Orword wrote:

I still don't see what "Sneak Attack" has to do with its effect. This name might be much better for Mobility instead.

Sneak Attack is flanking an enemy unit engaged in combat with an allied unit...
But wait, this is what any competent general should try to accomplish !
Maybe this should be renamed Teamwork, indeed ^^
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 5:33 pm

***
Point 7 of the Setup Rules:
The lead player takes the spare art of war cards, and deals 3 to every player.
It isn't clear if these are part of the hand, or added to the players' deck.
This could be clarified in Point 10.
A player’s initial hand is made up of the 3 art of war cards from the
supply (dealt to the player in step 7), plus the 3 random cards from their own deck, plus any omphalos cards they gained because they could not spend all their RP.

***
Can units with FLYING keyword be THROWN?

***
It seems really odd to have a massive section about terrain types and rules, mid rulebook, and before the attack actions have been fully covered. Would it not be better served to move the terrain glossary towards the back of the rules, and indicate that terrain specific rules are covered there instead?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 8:03 pm

Peps wrote:
Sure you can.
And the rule is in line with the possibility to do that: "During a RUN action, a unit can enter a number of areas equal to, or less than, its Movement +1." -> if Movement=0; then you can RUN for 0+1 areas.

Glad to hear that. My brain automatically assumed that 0 Movement points means the unit is wounded to the point it can't even move anymore, let alone run! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 8:47 pm

CreakyCroaky wrote:

** Initiative: can I suggest that the beginning of this be trimmed to: "If this unit makes a retaliation, then..."  (i.e. removing "discards an activation card to") because when I first read this definition, I thought you had to discard an activation card to "activate" the Initiative talent. This is probably just me being a dummy, so feel free to ignore this, but retaliation is pretty well explained in its own section, so you might not need to repeat _how_ to retaliate here.
Actually, this whole section is somewhat awkward, partly because in the first sentence, unit refers to the defender and in the last it refers to the attacker. How about:

If an attacked unit with the initiative talent decides to retaliate, then the retaliation is resolved ...

     ending with

If the attacking unit also has initiative, both side's initiative talent is ignored and battle occurs in the normal sequence.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   14th February 2017, 10:36 pm

Elrich wrote:
CreakyCroaky wrote:

** Initiative: can I suggest that the beginning of this be trimmed to: "If this unit makes a retaliation, then..."  (i.e. removing "discards an activation card to") because when I first read this definition, I thought you had to discard an activation card to "activate" the Initiative talent. This is probably just me being a dummy, so feel free to ignore this, but retaliation is pretty well explained in its own section, so you might not need to repeat _how_ to retaliate here.
Actually, this whole section is somewhat awkward, partly because in the first sentence, unit refers to the defender and in the last it refers to the attacker. How about:

If an attacked unit with the initiative talent decides to retaliate, then the retaliation is resolved ...

     ending with

If the attacking unit also has initiative, both side's initiative talent is ignored and battle occurs in the normal sequence.

Yes, you're spot on with the different uses of "unit". Can I suggest this wording, to maintain the consistent use of the phrase "this unit" when defining the talents:

If this unit decides to retaliate, then the retaliation is resolved...

  and ending with (simplifying your idea a bit):

If the attacking unit also has Initiative, then these effects are ignored.       And maybe add:  (Initiative doesn't work against an attacking unit that also has Initiative).

While I'm thinking about it, at the end of the description of the Block talent, you could add a similar sentence: (Block doesn't work against an enemy unit that also has Block.)
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   15th February 2017, 3:11 am

Aquatic Units
Aquatic units are marked with a trident <<< insert icon >>>> on their dashboards or troop cards. They gain +1 Movement for WALK or RUN actions if they start in, and only enter, aquatic areas during that action.
Aquatic units ignore terrain effects for aquatic terrain. They are subject to all other terrain effects.
~~~
Water (Aquatic)
3D elements: none.
Terrain effect: units in this area cannot use any talents.
Terrain effect: units in this area can only use passive or permanent powers.
~~~~
In the PNP rule book in states
"Units in this area, including Aquatic units,cannot use any Powers or Talents."

But as you see above it doesn't mention aquatic unit. Can they now use their powers and talents in aquatic areas?
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   15th February 2017, 9:52 am

Labyrinthsecho wrote:
But as you see above it doesn't mention aquatic unit. Can they now use their powers and talents in aquatic areas?

That's my understanding. QW, can you confirm the intend ?
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Tinnete
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   15th February 2017, 11:14 am

Hello,

I have a question about retaliate.

In Rulebook v20g.pdf (from the print & play), i read :
Once the attack has been declared and
before any dice are rolled, the Defender can choose
to retaliate (see page 17).


In beta v2.9, i don't find sentence about declaring retaliate before any dice are rolled.
Is it a miss or did i miss it ?
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WTFGamer
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   15th February 2017, 9:48 pm

Another Retaliate question. Does anyone ever do it? I don't think I've ever seen the move used in a gameplay demo. It's limited to a melee attack for an activation (vs moving, or taking an omphalos, or using a non-special attack power along with a melee attack). Save having two activation cards for the unit in question and getting back to back attacks with it, is retaliate ever a good use of a precious activation card?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.9 Beta version   

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2.9 Beta version
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