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 2.8 beta version

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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: 2.8 beta version   30th January 2017, 11:50 am

This version contains combat, which is all the core actions.

I've not incorporated 2.7 feedback as I've been focussed on getting the ATTACK section done. The next version will add in that.

File is here:

https://quirkworthy.com/2017/01/30/mythic-battles-v2-8/

Apparently I can't link docs directly, and will have to continue using an off-forum site of one sort or another Smile


Last edited by Voice of Olympus on 14th February 2017, 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   30th January 2017, 2:25 pm

I was looking forward to this part of the rules! Smile

Rulebook wrote:
An area is
an obstacle if it contains an enemy unit, or any 3D terrain

I thought allied units would be considered obstacles as well. It seems I was wrong.

Rulebook wrote:
A unit can only retaliate if is the target of a Range 0 ATTACK.

If a unit is guarding another, does it become the new target of the attack for the purpose of this rule? Does that mean that it can effectively retaliate against it? Also, I think there should be an "it" after if.

Rulebook wrote:
If a potential target’s area is full, then an adjacent ATTACKER may choose
whether they want to ATTACK it from the area they are in (requiring Range 1),
or as if they were in the target’s own area (Range 0). If the ATTACKER chooses
11
the second option, then all normal rules for a Range 0 ATTACK apply. For
example, a friendly unit could Guard the target, and a flying target could evade.

The example actually got me confused. I had to check the Guard talent description to make sure it's not usable against Range 0 attacks only. Might want to rephrase.

Rulebook wrote:
Resolve a separate combat sequence against each target in the area, one at a
time, in an order chosen by the ATTACKER. Continue to do this until either the
ATTACKER is no longer in a position to ATTACK
, or all original target units have
been ATTACKED once.
A target cannot retaliate against a multiple ATTACK.

Good to know you can't retaliate against a Multiple Attack as well. However, I think the underlined part is very debatable.
Rulebook wrote:
Resolving an ATTACK
Complete each step before moving on to the next.
a) Starting with the active player, the owners of both units declare any
talents or powers they will use in the ATTACK.
b) Calculate the effective Offence of the ATTACK.
c) Calculate the effective Defence of the target unit.
d) The ATTACKER must roll dice for the first assault.
e) The ATTACKER may roll dice for the second assault.
f) Apply any wounds to the target.

When do talents such as Mighty Throw resolve in this sequence? If, as the talent description says, you can throw destroyed units, I imagine it's between e) and f). It could be useful to point that out.

Rulebook wrote:
First Assault
Roll a number of dice equal to the effective Offence of the ATTACKING unit.
12
Any blank results are immediately removed.

When explaining assaults, you might want to add in the First Assault section that any blanks thrown in this assault can be used towards Mighty Throw, while in the second assault it should be clear that they cannot.

Also, in the examples for the Second Assault there should be one where you convert a rerolled die to +1. For instance, you throw three dice against an 8 Defence creature: you get 5 5 Blank. Blank is removed, you reroll the 5s. You get 2 and 1 (both are not enough), you convert the 1 (that is actually a 5+1) to +1 and add it to the 2 (5+2), which is now enough (5+3).
The fact that you can set aside even rerolled dice is very clearly stated in the rulebook, but since it was something many people were not aware of (myself included), it may be helpful to highlight it.
One more thing, I thought you could reroll rerolled (  Rolling Eyes ) 5s (5+5) to achieve even greater numbers than 10, is that still the case?
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   30th January 2017, 5:18 pm

2.8 wrote:
Effective Offence/Defence: This is the value of the unit’s stats after any applicable modifiers have been taken into account.
Might be a good place to state that Offence and Defense cannot be over 10 (and below 1 ?) whatever the modifiers.

2.8 wrote:
Area Attack [...] The target area must contain at least 1 enemy unit. The area may also contain friendly units. [...] If an area ATTACK targets a friendly unit, ...
The wording is a bit confusing to my taste here.
Don't beat around the bush ! Let's just say that if a friendly unit is in the area, then it is targeted/affected by the attack.

2.8 wrote:
the ATTACK against that target is resolved by the enemy player as if they owned the ATTACKING unit
"resolved" is a bit vague in my mind. Let's state clearly that the enemy player handles the dice roll !

2.8 wrote:
1) Choose a target for the ATTACK.
2) Declare any Guard.
4) Resolve the original ATTACK.
2.8 wrote:
Multiple attack : [...]Declare all the target units before resolving any ATTACKS.
I believe the interraction of the Guard talent with area and multiple attacks is (and will be) a source of confusion if not clearly described. It will be better to have such an example here to understand the importance of the order of attack resolutions.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   30th January 2017, 11:04 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
This version contains combat, which is all the core actions.
Some notes/queries:

Page 10, combat sequence, step 2, choose the guard. It's not clear to me from the definition of guard whether the attacker can also declare a guard. If so, presumably he does so here ?

Page 10, visibility - the wording doesn't make it clear that you can attack out of an obstacle.

Page 11 - you mention that the retaliation offence is the value applicable at the time of the retaliation, but you don't do the same for the target's defence, or the attackers offence/defence, which could change if the target has initiative.

Page 26 (minor quibble) - the wording for vitality is misleading; a unit with a vitality of X can only withstand a damage of X-1. Maybe it is better described as the amount of damage needed to destroy the unit?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 4:23 am

still working through the attack section, but I am unclear if dice that inflict wounds in First Assault phase are reused in the Second Assault phase.

It looks like any dice that were used to modify a result have been set aside, but anything used to inflict a wound remain in the reserve, making them available to reroll or modify a reroll, depending on if they are a 5 or not.

Is this accurate? Should a die inflicting a wound be reused to inflict more wounds?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 9:43 am

m8ryx wrote:
I am unclear if dice that inflict wounds in First Assault phase are reused in the Second Assault phase.

I don't get your question.

I believe the explanation for 1st and 2nd assault could be clearer actually:
If target defence is 5 or less, there is no 2nd assault required.
If target defence is 6 to 10, the attacking player may decide to go with a 2nd assault, meaning he will be re-rolling "5" or "adjusted 5" dice and adding the results to 5.

Now I understand your question ! You're referring to dice that inflicted a wound in the first assault on a >5 defense, right ? (or else there is no 2nd assault) If it is not clear in the description, it should state that the reserved dice are expended when used to get a +1. (so no you can't re-use them)
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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 10:45 am

Complicated stuff, and some very good points.

One thing I need you to look for now is anything you think is missing. There are 3 main areas of stuff that I think still need adding.

1) intro, components list (card, maps, etc - including how to read them). This goes at the front.
2) Omphalos cards and healing.
3) Unit "bestiary" at the back.

I will check again after these have been added, but we might as well start now because every iteration will pick up something.

So... what have I missed? What are you expecting to see that isn't here?

Many thanks Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 4:16 pm

Hello, QW. Here are a few sections that are still missing:
1. Terrain list of effects.
2. Battle cycle and reshuffling
3. Victory or game end conditions (even if this section just says check the scenario for them)
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 6:55 pm

My reading of the rules for attack related to first and second assault is this:
First assault:
- roll dice
- modify dice
- set aside any dice used to modify dice
- apply damage where a die is equal to or greater than defense
- There is no instruction to set aside dice that have done damage
- Then move on to the
Second assault:
- reroll dice by discretion
- modify dice
- set aside dice used to modify
- apply damage

I might be missing it, but there is no instruction to set aside dice that have been used to apply damage in the first assault. It also isn't clear that there is no second assault for defenders with a defense less than 6. So my reading is that I apply damage where applicable in the First Assault, and then use the damaging dice again in the Second Assault, along with any dice that were not used in a modification in the First Assault.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   31st January 2017, 9:04 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:

So... what have I missed? What are you expecting to see that isn't here?
In the discussion about range 0 attacks into full areas, at the top of page 11: "... then all normal rules for a Range 0 ATTACK apply."
The differences between a range 0 and a range 1+ attack are scattered around the manual. It might be useful to have a table at this point that summarises the differences between the two and the talents that are affected by it.


Last edited by Elrich on 1st February 2017, 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   1st February 2017, 1:33 pm

Hi, I have a few questions here. I wish you would add some words into rules to clarify these questions.

2.8 beta page 11, line 3 wrote:
In either case, do not move the ATTACKER.

I feel that it is not clear what this sentence means. Could you explain in details?

2.8 beta page 15, line 1 wrote:
Resolve a separate combat sequence against each target in the area, ...

Is "in the area" unnecessary?

2.8 beta page 20, Climb wrote:
This unit may move onto areas of difficult terrain, such as impenetrable terrain and cliffs.

I think that this "move" means WALK or RUN actions. If so, it may be something like:
"This unit may take WALK or RUN actions to move onto areas of difficult terrain, such as impenetrable terrain and cliffs."
(And the "areas" should be written in bold?)
What would you think?

2.8 beta page 8-9 "ENTER (Complex Action)"

ENTER action enables a unit to enter any areas, even if the area is difficult terrain (such as impenetrable terrain and cliffs) and the unit does not have Climb talent. Is this a correct ruling?
Or are difficult terrains never defined as deployment zones?

2.8 beta page 8-9 "movement types"

Movement types are listed under "Moving" section. It seems to be vague whether ATTACK-related terrain effects are applied or not, based on these movement types. Of course, the wording, "all terrain effects," does not exclude the ATTACK-related terrain effects. But it may be good to make this ruling clear. Otherwise, the rules for terrain effects' application may be moved to other appropriate section. What would you think?

Sorry if someone has already suggested these questions.

2.8 beta page 18 and 25, Recall a Troop

Maybe, in order to recall a troop, the troop must belong to the active player. However, the rule does not specifiy the recalled unit's affiliation.

Thanks!

Edited: Some new questions are added.


Last edited by Ryo on 4th February 2017, 2:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   2nd February 2017, 10:59 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:

So... what have I missed? What are you expecting to see that isn't here?
Actually, the other way around - I think that the section on manoeuvres should not be there. The concept of manoeuvres seems to me to be an artificial one, since it lumps together a number of game elements that have no real connection other than all being paid for by AoW cards.

I would suggest instead that 'Draw card' and 'Search for Card' should be dealt with in the Sequence of Play section (as 'Recall' and 'Second Activation' already are), 'Evade' should be dealt with in the Attack section (perhaps between 'Choose a Target' and 'Retaliation'), and 'Invoke Powers' should be dealt with in a separate section that describes use of powers in detail. A table simply listing all possible uses of AoW cards would still be useful though.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.8 beta version   6th February 2017, 9:15 pm

@QW,
I know you guys have been busy with the PM, just wanted to hear if you had any thoughts on when we should look for 2.9?

Cheers
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