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Atapoti
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 1:05 am

A few more comments:

1. All the actions under the moving section should remind the player that they cannot WALK, RUN or ENTER into an area that is full.

2. This point is debatable, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to remind the player, under the WALK section, that they cannot WALK if they had previously performed an ATTACK action that same activation.

3. Similar to Point 2, I'm wondering if it helps to put the rule "During their activation, a unit that is taking a complex action is treated as having no talents at all, and only permanent powers." somewhere either under the general Action heading, or directly under ABSORB, ENTER, and RUN sections each. The only point this rule shows up is in the turn sequence.

4. Omphalos game term contains some fluff. Perhaps leave this story related stuff to the starting guide and leave this reference guide strictly as a dry rules manual. Stating that they are represented as red gems is good. I would maybe add that they can be the target of CLAIM and ABSORB actions, then add a "See Page XX" which would point to the actions section on omphalos.

5. Although it's implicit, I think it's a good idea to specifically state that a unit cannot CLAIM an omphalos if it already has one claimed.

6. I seem to remember one of the earlier drafts had troops unable to be recalled if they had activated that same turn. I'm just curious, what was the reason for this stealth change? I definitely prefer being able to recall troops regardless of whether they activated or not.


Peps wrote:
RichC wrote:

Example of Draw Cards: “During steps B and C of the players own turn.”

To: During the Activation Phases (steps B and C) of the players own turn.

I would also consider this change as well for the Draw Cards.
The active player may use this during their Activation Phases (steps B and C).


Small change to the Recall – when allowed area.

“During step D1 of a players own turn if their divinity’s area is not full.”
To: During the End of Turn Phase (D1) of the active players turn. This may not be used if the divinity’s area is full.

Again I think it is good to get players using the game terms like End of Turn Phase. This will help them get the vocabulary of the game in their head instead of only an alpha numeric reference to something which is more difficult to recall for the learning process.

I think these are good ideas.

I like this idea as well.
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Thathane
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 1:14 am

@Voice of Olympus : Do you have any thought on the "mighty throw" question ?

Rules 2.7 wrote:
After the game, you may want to check the online FAQ, or ask on the official forums at http://agoodplace.forumactif.com
Besides, if I think it's a good idea to refer to external ressources in the rules text, in the intent of building a community, I think it's a bad move to consecrate this forum as the official forum. I think you should consider to directing people to a more professional and viable forum solution for the future (but I understand you've a lot of work just now and don't have time for that).

Rules 2.7 wrote:
After retaliation, this unit’s attacker may resolve their own ATTACK only if they  are still in a position to make it (having sufficient Range, for example).
Can the attacker makes his attack on an another target ?
(note : the retaliation talent is not described)

Rules 2.7 wrote:
If the friendly unit does not belong to the active player then it may be  activated immediately by discarding one of its activation cards. This Leader  activation does not count towards the maximum number of unit activations allowed for the turn. This activation does not require an art of war card to be  discarded.
Rules 2.7 wrote:
Active player: the player whose turn it is. There is exactly 1 active player at all times.
Who is the active player in the case of the interaction of this two rules for games effects purposes ?

Rules 2.7 wrote:
Obstacle: an area that a unit cannot make a Range 1+ ATTACK through.
But can it make a ranged 1+ attack to this area ?

Rules 2.7 wrote:
Gem Collector
This unit can CLAIM an omphalos from anywhere in its surroundings.
Rules 2.7 wrote:
Surroundings: a unit’s surroundings are the area it is in, plus all of the  adjacent areas.
Rules 2.7 wrote:
Obstacle: an area that a unit cannot make a Range 1+ ATTACK through.
Can a Gem collector CLAIMs omphalos through an obstacle ?
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 4:46 am

Hy there, just a suggestion

After the initial explaining of what is a game term, in the Appearance section, woulsn't you just say, just after examples:

- There's a complete list of game terms at the end of this rulebook. (or page XXX)

So that people can, in this exact moment, know that every game term from here to the end of the book can easily be searched in a specific place. So when they read throughout they search, and not just wait till they get to the end to know that the list of game terms exist.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 5:01 am

Hello

When you describe, at the beginning of the "recruit an army", how do ou "choose" a divinity, you could explain that this means taking its dashboard.
You explain it with the rest of units in 3-(b), saying you take dashboards or troop cards, but don't do the same with divinities.

Perhaps include here that you also take the miniatures? tokens? activation cards? Could be a good idea to have everything here (now that we got a wonderful deluxe box that we can have everything at the moment).
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 5:05 am

And in 3 -C-, when you say:

If a player cannot afford any of the remaining units, then all their remaining RP are converted to omphalos cards: 1 card for each unspent RP.

You could say instead:

If a player cannot afford any of the remaining units, then all their remaining RP are converted to omphalos cards: TAKE 1 card for each unspent RP.

So you explain the same as before but ALSO have the chance to guide the players and keep things clearer. It is strange that they know they have to take , let's say three omphalos cards but they have to remember it, without taking them, until the "setup", phase, point 9...


Last edited by Ricardo Tapias Rios on 26th January 2017, 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 5:24 am

In my opinion, it is not easy to understand the purpose of this concept that has appeared named families, and really would prefer to get rid completely of aditional definitions and complications. it is not something easy to guess why do we need it when you are learning, and is complicated that you say that actions are divided in two (simple and complex) and then say they are also divided in three (movement, attacking and omphalos). One can think that we must remember too many things before even knowing nothing about the actions. Don't see the benefit. You can explain what happens with omphalos in "CLAIM an omphalos" section, of course it would be the place to search for it, no need to have a family to know what I talk about. And people that need to know about actions go to actions section, that's all, I don't think that I say "let's see, I want to know if I can claim two omphalos, where do I search? oh, yes Omphalos FAMILY...
I'd simply search "omphalos" in your list of game terms. Same with movement family: I won't search for "movement family" when I have a doubt about ENTER, the corect way of finding things in a rulebook is searching the ENTER keyword in the list of game terms, then go to the related page or pages (that you will include for sure in the list of game terms) that tells me everything related to the keyword so I'd know everything I need to know about ENTERing the map.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 5:34 am

I can see why you do not want to mark out the talents, due to some of them not working with certain powers, but I think this reasoning calls out why it is confusing in the first place: talent and power interactions depend on the power being used. Each unit with a power only has a small collection of talents. If the applicable talents were listed in the power description, it would only be a few words and would likely save on many faqs.

Something like:
Power Name [Mighty Throw]

Or at the bottom of the description:
Power Name
Description text
Applied talents: Talent names

The first version could be explained on the card breakdown page pretty easily.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 5:37 am

Example taken from a FFG rulebook:

In Rebellion, I want to understand better what is the "diplomacy" concept... what do I do? I go to the INDEX (just a list of terms ans search for DIPLOMACY (of course) it tells me that I look for it in page 8 of REFERENCE RULEBOOK (would be your game terms list). In page 8, I found:

Diplomacy is... whatever
AND THEN it says: "See also:mission cards, abilities, leaders"
So that you may find aditional info about the concept.

I now it is hard to do, but that's why the rules in these FFG games are so good: it takes pages to make things understandable.

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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 9:25 am

Rules 2.7 wrote:
"During their activation, a unit that is taking a complex action is treated as having no talents at all, and only permanent powers."

Is there a symbol to identify "permanent powers" ?
The definition do not help as it is a bit of a loop here :
"During their activation, a unit that is taking a complex action is treated as having no talents at all, and only permanent powers."
"Permanent: a type of power. These are the only powers that remain in effect when a unit makes a complex action."
Question

Rules 2.7 wrote:
If a player cannot afford any of the remaining units, then all their remaining RP are converted to omphalos cards: 1 card for each unspent RP.
It should be good to indicate that the Omphalos cards you gain do not count towards victory conditions.
(it's a bit subtle to understand you need to collect gems not cards)


As I am not sure my previous comments were noticed (lasts on 2.6 topic), I copy them here :
Voice of Olympus wrote:
Yes, flying units ignore all terrain modifiers. I've checked with Benoit and that's what he intended.

Telgar wrote:
OK so I guess it means a flying's unit stats already include the elevated area modifiers (as the LoS is already covered in "Flying units ignore obstacles when making an ATTACK at Range 1+"). It also means that a flying unit do not go for "cover" (+1 def) when over a forest for instance. So flying units are actually weaker against range attacks than terrestrial units. Should it also means that there is no LoS obstacles when attacking a flying unit ? (it's a reflection, the rulebook doesn't state this at all)
Can you double-check the intent here ?
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Thathane
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 10:34 am

Telgar wrote:
Telgar wrote:
OK so I guess it means a flying's unit stats already include the elevated area modifiers (as the LoS is already covered in "Flying units ignore obstacles when making an ATTACK at Range 1+"). It also means that a flying unit do not go for "cover" (+1 def) when over a forest for instance. So flying units are actually weaker against range attacks than terrestrial units. Should it also means that there is no LoS obstacles when attacking a flying unit ? (it's a reflection, the rulebook doesn't state this at all)
Can you double-check the intent here ?
Don't forget that if flying units are more exposed to ranged attacks than other units, which is logical in my opinion, they can also "evade" this attacks more easily.

Rules 2.7 wrote:
Recall : the process of summoning a unit of  troops to the same  area as your  divinity .  This  unit must have previously ENTERED the battlefield.
Can a flying or a swimming god recalls a land troop on a water terrain or an impassable/obstacle/rock terrain ?

Rules 2.7 wrote:
Then the owner of the throwing unit moves the target unit one area . A unit cannot be thr own into Cliff or Rocks area s .
What if the throwed unit is surrounded by impassable terrain/rocks/sea/full area.


Last edited by Thathane on 26th January 2017, 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 10:41 am

Thathane wrote:
Don't forget that if flying units are more exposed to ranged attacks than other units, which is logical in my opinion, they can also "evade" this attacks more easily.

Actually no : flying units cannot Evade ranged attacks.
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Thathane
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 10:58 am

Telgar wrote:
Thathane wrote:
Don't forget that if flying units are more exposed to ranged attacks than other units, which is logical in my opinion, they can also "evade" this attacks more easily.

Actually no : flying units cannot Evade ranged attacks.
Exact !
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 12:42 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
@Elrich - yes, you can search for a card when you like.

Does this mean that, when I am attacked, I can spend an AoW to search the activation card of the attacked unit and then play it to retaliate (during the opponent's turn)?

Thathane wrote:
Rules 2.7 wrote:
Obstacle: an area that a unit cannot make a Range 1+ ATTACK through.
But can it make a ranged 1+ attack to this area ?

I believe so. A good way of explaning that "through" might be this one: when the line of sight enters and leaves an area. The line of sight only enters the area that you are attacking, so -even if it's an obstacle- it doesn't go through it and you can still attack it.

@Voice of Olympus Can you confirm this?


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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 12:51 pm

@Orword - I have the same understanding on both
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 2:40 pm

Orword wrote:
[justify]
Voice of Olympus wrote:
@Elrich - yes, you can search for a card when you like.

Does this mean that, when I am attacked, I can spend an AoW to search the activation card of the attacked unit and then play it to retaliate (during the opponent's turn)?

Yes, you can!

Particularly funny with Achilles or Ares if they manage to "mighty throw" their attacker Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 3:55 pm

Hy there.
Perhaps the actuions that the "pasive" player can do should be included anywhere? I miss the possibilities that has the player to make actions or maneuvers while it is the oponent turn. It is not included anywhere, and I feel like I still don't know what can or can't do. I know he can search the deck for a card, and can retaliate (a power specific for the pasive player) but, what else? In the case of the power, as it is described, in my opinion there is no need to explain further, but general maneuvers that can be doone when it is not your turn should be classified or called "reactions" or something like that? So we make sure that we distinguish the maneuvers or actions one can do as active and the ones you can also make as pasive. So when you describe the maneuvers just catalogue them as:

Draw a card
Search for a card (reaction)
second activation
Recall
Invoke power (reaction)
Evade (reaction)
.
.
And perhaps (but I don't see the benefit here, but for continuity sake) the same withi talents or powers, for example retaliate could be also described as reaction, (it is ONLY used as it) or guard or initiative... they all are used when it is not your turn. But well, I would only describe such things as "invoke power (reaction) and that's all.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   26th January 2017, 4:16 pm

QW,
On our previous discussion of Troop cards not being able to be used as AOW cards. Something to think about is perhaps on other unit cards printing some type of iconography to help show the 2 different use cases for them. Some icon that shows a use for activation and a different one for use when destroyed and combined with another card for AOW use. I realize it may be a bit late in the game for this, just thinking of more ways to polish and clearly communicate.


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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   27th January 2017, 8:55 am

Ricardo Tapias Rios wrote:
Hy there.
Perhaps the actuions that the "pasive" player can do should be included anywhere? I miss the possibilities that has the player to make actions or maneuvers while it is the oponent turn. It is not included anywhere, and I feel like I still don't know what can or can't do.
I agree; I find the description of the actual turn to be very sparse; even for the active player, the turn sequence doesn't mention searching the deck or taking extra cards.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   27th January 2017, 2:34 pm

Unless you are responding to an ATTACK, the only thing you can do when you're not the active player is one of the manoeuvres (search the deck).
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   27th January 2017, 3:32 pm

QW, Any idea when we will see 2.8?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   27th January 2017, 4:12 pm

Late tonight, or early tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   27th January 2017, 6:08 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
Unless you are responding to an ATTACK, the only thing you can do when you're not the active player is one of the manoeuvres (search the deck).
It might be a good idea to state that explicitly after the description of the turn sequence.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   28th January 2017, 5:20 am

Voice of Olympus wrote:
Unless you are responding to an ATTACK, the only thing you can do when you're not the active player is one of the manoeuvres (search the deck).
Actually, when you are not the active player, you can also activate a troop IF the active player uses a friendly unit's Leader talent on your troop, correct?
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   28th January 2017, 9:38 am

Ken wrote:
Voice of Olympus wrote:
Unless you are responding to an ATTACK, the only thing you can do when you're not the active player is one of the manoeuvres (search the deck).
Actually, when you are not the active player, you can also activate a troop IF the active player uses a friendly unit's Leader talent on your troop, correct?
Yes, it's more or less one of my points.
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PostSubject: Re: 2.7 beta version   28th January 2017, 11:25 am

Ken wrote:
Voice of Olympus wrote:
Unless you are responding to an ATTACK, the only thing you can do when you're not the active player is one of the manoeuvres (search the deck).
Actually, when you are not the active player, you can also activate a troop IF the active player uses a friendly unit's Leader talent on your troop, correct?
Although that results from using a Talent (i.e. further up in the rule hierarchy), so shouldn't be mentioned in the description of the basic turn sequence.
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