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 Beta version 2.5

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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 2:42 pm

@ Garshell

"when you want during your turn except for the first normal draw and the recall maneuver" is not the same as "when you want during your turn". It is very important, as you say.

"talent and powers are unit abilities, maneuvers are player possibility and game mechanics" That's exactly why "evade" and "recall" should be powers and talents, not maneuvers. And in my opinion it is a good idea to include just an explanation about the timing when maneuvers appear in the turn structure, just to explain things a little. Of course it is an opinion.


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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 2:45 pm

I agree considering Recall a talent may be counter-productive. We'd have to distinguish between "good" and "bad" talents again and we might as well end up writing a novel instead of a rulebook. Indeed, I'm not a fan of the "extended" approach to rules that's being used, as I believe concise, clear sentences can do wonders, but I also don't even have half the amount of experience Quirkworthy has in this field. However, I'm happy to see more and more short and straight forward sentences make it into the rulebook, as I believe they instantly clear any doubts that might come up while reading the rules, consequently removing the need for any FAQs at all. Although I think some parts will need to be explained more clearly, I'm confident we're reaching a very good state for the rulebook.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   11th January 2017, 11:42 am

Thanks guys. Great stuff as always. I'm not very well, so I basically missed yesterday. I'll reply to these comments in a bit.

@Vianney - I don't think you need to worry. The whole point of these betas is to go through and fix everything we can. What we're debating is details because the main structure works very well already and details are what's left Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   11th January 2017, 1:00 pm

Is there a list of permanent powers ? "Permanent: a type of power. These are the only powers that remain in effect when a unit makes a complex action." I assume that they are mostly Passive Powers...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   11th January 2017, 1:12 pm

forficule wrote:
Is there a list of permanent powers ?

There will be an icon to distinguish them on the dashboard. They are passives such as Atlas' Bearer of Heavens (Unless you discard an additional card (of any type) whenever you activate Atlas, each of your opponents draws 1 card from their deck).


Last edited by Orword on 11th January 2017, 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   11th January 2017, 1:42 pm

Yes, permanent powers will be distinguished on the dashboards.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   11th January 2017, 3:44 pm

@Qw

Get well soon, we missed you yesterday XDDD
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   12th January 2017, 2:43 am

@QW

I see a problem with current description of "area". It says that "has a number in the middle". Perhaps we could call this number something, isn't it? I would use this sentence to explain more things and introduce a concept that I think it is needed, something like "SIZE" of an area.

So say something like:

Area: an irregularly-shaped space on the game map, surrounded by a line, and with a single number in the centre that indicates the size of the area.

.
.
.
Size: Maximum number of units that can fit inside an area. When that exact number of units is present in the area, it is considered a full area

Introducing the concept "size" is a good thing for other explanations, such as what is a full area or explaining that the every unit adds ONE towards the size of an area without considering number of miniatures if it is troops. Size could be useful in future uses when powers can affect small areas or bigger ones. Or simply when describing things, the "size of the area" concept is better than saying "the number shown in the area".

And when describing full area, you can add (added in caps):

Full area: An area that contains a number of units equal to its size. This maximum number cannot be exceeded. A unit cannot enter OR BE PLACED in a full area by any means.

And therefore the "recall" aclaration about "if the divinity's area is not full" could be unnecesary, you could have already said that units cannot enter OR BE PLACED in a full area by any means.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   12th January 2017, 12:48 pm

Good points Ricardo Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   12th January 2017, 12:54 pm

@Ricardo
+1 good points about areas and size
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   12th January 2017, 3:21 pm

I agree with Ricardo as well, though I would use capacity instead of size.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   12th January 2017, 4:41 pm

@ Orword
Capacity is a good option, since it doesn't seem to be a relation between actual "size" of areas and number of units that fit inside.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 2:22 pm

Any word on when the next revision may make it out? I know QW has been sick this week. I was hoping to take some time this weekend and review what we had on rules but it has been a while on updates.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 2:45 pm

Aiming for a new iteration later today Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 3:00 pm

Ricardo Tapias Rios wrote:
"RECALL" could also be a talent (or power) and be included only in divinity units.

RECALL can be performed even if the God wasn't activated (actually it is used outside of any unit's turn) so I believe it is better not to have it on the dashboard.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 4:08 pm

In line with Telgar.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 4:11 pm

Recall is a universal ability of all divinities, and isn't a talent or a power.

As all divinities have it and can use it regardless of whether they are activated or not, and as the default armies all include at least 1 divinity at all times, it makes sense to me to include a reminder on the turn sequence, where it will be a question that every player needs to ask themselves every turn.

Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 4:12 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:


Regarding unit states, I've not had any problem tracking this myself as there aren't lots of different units in play, and you'll remember if you killed something (as opposed to it never having been on the board).


@Quirkworthy - I've been mulling this over. The reference book is our bible for how things work in the system. People who have been testing the game wouldn't have a problem tracking the difference between a troop that hasn't entered the board, a troop in game at full capacity, a troop that has taken damage (losing it's Talents), and a troop that has been destroyed. For a new person learning the rules for the first time, I think these states and how they interact with rules like Recall is very important. Just the fact that a dead hero or monster is dead forever(unless some power breaks this concept), but a troop can be recalled to the god at full capacity in 3 of the 4 states mentioned is a subtilty lost on a newbie. When evaluating what to pick in a draft, this is something one should consider. Maybe it should appear as a callout note in the manual, but I really think the status of a unit is worth a mention in the reference book.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 5:01 pm

WTFGamer wrote:
@Quirkworthy - I've been mulling this over. The reference book is our bible for how things work in the system. People who have been testing the game wouldn't have a problem tracking the difference between a troop that hasn't entered the board, a troop in game at full capacity, a troop that has taken damage (losing it's Talents), and a troop that has been destroyed. For a new person learning the rules for the first time, I think these states and how they interact with rules like Recall is very important. Just the fact that a dead hero or monster is dead forever(unless some power breaks this concept), but a troop can be recalled to the god at full capacity in 3 of the 4 states mentioned is a subtilty lost on a newbie. When evaluating what to pick in a draft, this is something one should consider. Maybe it should appear as a callout note in the manual, but I really think the status of a unit is worth a mention in the reference book.

I actually had this happen in a PNP game where someone tried to recall a troop that had not previously ENTERED the battlefield.

On second thought, I might experiment with a house rule to allow this. It might make troops a little more useful. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 5:20 pm

Ken wrote:


On second thought, I might experiment with a house rule to allow this. It might make troops a little more useful. Smile

I've had games where troops played a huge factor as is. That tiny 2 spot on the map in the forest with an omphalos was the place I chose to plant Zeus. Incoming ranged attacks would need to deal with a higher defense. I used Recall to bring centaurs to me from the spot they spawned. They would take the hit meant for Zeus and I'd bring back both or 1 if the troop got damaged or destroyed to take the hit again. Recall is a great way to get around that limit of 2 active activations troops face in the first battle cycle. Letting you bring them on to the battlefield with Recall would certainly change a lot of battlefield dynamics. That makes any Heroes and Monsters that have only 3 activation cards and can't be summoned seem that much worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   13th January 2017, 9:31 pm

Well I don't know if the other side of the troop card is different or simply is the same in another language (see? It is a bad idea to share components for different languages XD) but perhaps simply agreeing that a card faced down means the troops are dead could be enough, isn't it? Or like in magic the gathering, place in its side to mean it is dead, or simply keep the minis over the troop card when the unit still has not entered and in one side of the board when minis are removed and finally dead... This could be aplicable to every unit, not just troops. One could say "no, I still have not entered the board with my manticore" after it is dead if you place it AGAIN in the same place where it was before entering the board...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   14th January 2017, 5:33 am

@Ricardo - I agree with your suggestions for how to manage the minis to signify state. Those will work great. Where I've currently got concerns is how the reference book is going to wrangle the concept of a unit's state. Rules are being built around the concept of a unit being dead, damaged or just in the game. Using a couple of activation cards as AoW and Recalling Troops being two of them. Who knows what other powers may key off this concept. I'm pulling for giving a unit's state an official mention beyond just were Recall and Dead Activation cards get mentioned.

As always QW, you are the final word. If you don't deem it worthy, it isn't going in. I get this and can accept. I'm using the space to make the case.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   14th January 2017, 12:05 pm

I’m sorry if someone has already asked these questions.

1. Block vs Mighty Throw
Block Talent wrote:
Non-flying enemy units in the same area as this unit cannot move out of this area.

Mighty Throw Talent wrote:
Then the owner of the throwing unit moves the target unit one area.

Maybe, non-flying enemy units in the same area as the unit with Block talent can be thrown out by the effect of Mighty Throw talent. But based on rules as written, it seems that the thrown unit cannot be “moved” by Mighty Throw, because both talents use the same term “move”. I think that the Block talent’s move means MOVE and RUN actions, but in the case of Mighty Throw, "move" means neither MOVE nor RUN actions. What would you think?

2. Moving (page 14)
It may be self-explanatory to move a unit along the connected areas, but it is not specified. It is better to add the sentence, such like “When a unit enter a new area, the new area must be adjacent to its current area.” (Maybe my English is not good, please use a good expression.)

Thank you for your attention.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   14th January 2017, 5:39 pm

@Ryo - good point about the use of move. I'll clarify this.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   14th January 2017, 10:43 pm

Maybe rephrasing of
Non-flying enemy units in the same area as this unit cannot move out of this area.

to
Non-flying enemy units in the same area as this unit cannot voluntarily move out of this area.

could solve the issue with interaction of Block and Mighty Throw
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