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 Beta version 2.5

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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 12:01 pm

Latest version is on my blog as usual:

https://quirkworthy.com/2017/01/09/mythic-battles-version-2-5/

Some other work came up which occupied me for most of the weekend, which is why I've not dealt with all the 2.4 comments yet. I'll be working on this more today and will upload a further improvement late tonight, containing any outstanding comments from 2.4, plus anything you have to say about this 2.5.

The main additions in 2.5 are the actions general intro, and movement actions (MOVE, RUN, ENTER).

Note that the terrain rules will be part of the map description rather than the movement rules. They've not been forgotten Smile

Cheers


Last edited by Voice of Olympus on 23rd January 2017, 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 1:25 pm

Thanks for keeping us updated. I think it's really great how in touch you guys are with the community.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 2:12 pm

I think the Actions paragraph needs examples. Also:

Rulebook wrote:
[Acquatic units] gain +1 Movement if they spend their whole activation in aquatic areas.

What does this mean?

Rulebook wrote:
ENTER (Complex Action)
During an ENTER action, a unit is placed in their army’s deployment zone, as
defined by the scenario. The unit’s activation then ends.
A unit that has not taken an ENTER action cannot use either talents or powers.
A unit can only leave the battlefield if it is destroyed.

Might be worth reminding the reader that, since a unit who ENTERS the battlefield is performing a complex action, talents and non-permanent powers are disabled. Ex.: Odysseus's Cunning power (At the end of Odysseus' activation, draw a card.) does not activate when he ENTERS the battlefield.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 5:35 pm

Orword wrote:


Rulebook wrote:
[Acquatic units] gain +1 Movement if they spend their whole activation in aquatic areas.

What does this mean?


If an acquatic unit starts in an aquatic area and ends in an aquatic area without any part of that move ever entering other type of area, that unit may add +1 acautic area to its normal (not run) movement.

I'm assuming since run is a special action that disables most positive abilities, it would be the case here as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 5:53 pm

The +1 move for aquatic units in aquatic areas does count for RUN as well. As a complex action that cancels talents and powers, but not terrain effects.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 6:37 pm

Thanks for the clarification QW!
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 7:04 pm

Apologies if this has been mentioned already. I haven't read all the 2.4 replies yet.

Rules 2.5 wrote:
A player “buys” a manoeuvre by discarding cards from their hand. Each AoW card a manoeuvre costs must be paid for by either:
• Discarding 1 Art of War card.
• Discarding 2 activation cards from the same or different destroyed unit.

1. Manoeuvres can be paid for with Omphalos cards
2. If the activation card used from a destroyed unit can be a Troop, an examination of what state units are in during play is required.

For example: At the start of a skirmish, all units neither exist or are destroyed. Troops at this point cannot be Recalled or their cards used in combination as AoW.

Should we have a staging area for dead units? Possibly one for units that haven't been put on the board yet also? This seems like a ripe area for errors of intent to creep in.

Sorry if i'm poking at stuff you plan to cover later QW. I'm trying to get it straight for games I'm playing now. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 8:08 pm

Absolutely fine WTFGamer, and good points.

Regarding unit states, I've not had any problem tracking this myself as there aren't lots of different units in play, and you'll remember if you killed something (as opposed to it never having been on the board).

Good point on the omphalos card. That will come up in the section on omphalos, but you're right that it should be on the AoW page too as a reminder. Plus the fact that it's removed from the game when used, not discarded.

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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 9:18 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:

Good point on the omphalos card. That will come up in the section on omphalos, but you're right that it should be on the AoW page too as a reminder. Plus the fact that it's removed from the game when used, not discarded.

If you use and omphalos card as an AoW card its also removed from the game?
I thought that the ophalos was only removed when used to restore 1 health point to your deity.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 9:19 pm

WTFGamer wrote:
If an acquatic unit starts in an aquatic area and ends in an aquatic area without any part of that move ever entering other type of area, that unit may add +1 acautic area to its normal (not run) movement.

I see,  spend their whole activation is what threw me off, it can be terribly misinterpreted. I think it needs rephrasing.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 9:41 pm

+1 Feue. I thought removal from the game was only when Omphalos were used to heal also. We've been playing they get discarded like any other AoW card when used in that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 9:59 pm

Quote :
Obstacle: an area that a unit cannot make a Range 1+ ATTACK through.

Can you make a range +1 attack "into" an area with an obstacle?

Quote :
Wound: to reduce the target unit’s Vitality.

Does this need to include a definition for a troop unit?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 10:17 pm

Sorry, my bad. The omphalos is not discarded unless it is used to heal.

Yes, you can make the attack into an obstacle, just not through.

Wound - possibly. Depends on the final wording of the damage section.



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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 10:36 pm

@ QW
I have not read the forum for days now, so excuse me if I talk about something already solved, but well I need to explain XD

Don't you think it would be better to consider "evade" a talent instead of a maneuver?
I mean, there's a lot of "special movements" or "special attacks" described in the talents section, such as "mighty throw". You don't consider it a maneuver although it actually moves a unit.
Perhaps you could just describe "evade" as a talent and include it in the units you want them to have it. This way you could even separate it from the flying units, so perhaps you can have a unit that doesn't fly but got some kind of special way of being fast, so it can "evade" while being a land unit.
And it could also help to take out some weight from the section, considering there are lot of maneuvers to describe.


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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 10:42 pm

@ QW

And now that I think about it, "RECALL" could also be a talent (or power) and be included only in divinity units. Then the description will not hinder the maneuver chart.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   9th January 2017, 11:18 pm

@ QW

And "activation cards" are not defined in game terms. AoW cards are, so these ones should be too, isn't it?

SO when you define what an activation card is you could simply say "when a unit dies, its activation cards still can be used: two activation cards from destroyed units equals one AoW card." And then you can forget about explaining every time that you can choose two activation cards instead of an aow card.

And then you could also say when you define "DECK" that it is composed of Aow and activation cards.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 12:20 am

Page 2:

*Adjacent area: should go after "Active unit".
*Active unit: "unit" should be bolded.

Page 4:

*Obstacle: "area" should be bolded.
*Range: "unit" should be bolded.

Page 5:

*Surroundings: "adjacent" should be bolded.

Page 7:

*Recruit an army: there are some keywords that should be bolded.
4th line: scenario.
5th line: units.
7yh line: dashboard, units.
9th line: army.
12nd line: army.

Page 8:

*Set up the table:
11st line: "card" should not be bolded.

Page 9:

*C) Second action phase / 3): "unit" should be bolded.

Page 10:

*Limit of activations
1st line: army should be bolded.

Page 11:

Art of war cads & Manoeuvres
4th line: "manoeuvres" should be bolded.

Page 12:

2nd row/2nd column: "dashboard" should be bolded.
2nd row/4th column: "dashboard" should be bolded.
3nd row/4nd column: "non-flying" should be bolded.

Page 14:

2nd line: "unit" should be bolded.
Aquatic units: "areas" should be bolded.

Page 15:

2nd line: "scenario" should be bolded.

Page 16:

*Block: "non-flying" should be bolded.

Page 18:

*Mighty throw: 4th line: "assault" should be bolded.
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Ricardo Tapias Rios
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 5:48 am

These are my two cents about how could the turn sequence be, more streamlined and removing some concepts that I explain below why I think that are not needed in here. This is a turn sequence, not the place where you explain rules, in my opinion. I have used TWO sequences instead of a more complicated one. It is as used in Star Wars Rebellion: they use a "big" turn structure and whenever you get to a combat, you use the combat sequence (that it is short and easy to understand, after a couple of times you don't need to even see it.. a thing that could perectly happen here as the "activation sequence" is easy and intuitive!!! So without further ado XDD:

Turn Sequence
Every turn consists of the following phases. The active player must complete
each step, in order, unless they are instructed to skip to a later one.
Cards can only be discarded from the player’s hand.

A) Start of Turn Phase
- Draw 1 card from your deck.
- Decide whether to pass or continue. If you choose pass, you may draw a
second card from your deck and then must immediately go to “end of  turn phase”(E).

B) First Activation Phase
- To activate a unit, proceed to ACTIVATION SEQUENCE. If you don’t activate a unit, go to “recall phase”(D).

C) Second Activation Phase
- To activate a second unit, discard 1 AoW card and proceed to ACTIVATION SEQUENCE. If you don’t activate a second unit, go to “recall phase”(D).


D) Recall Phase (if aplicable, see below!!!!!)
- Decide whether or not to discard 1 AoW card to recall 1 unit of troops.
See page XXX.

E) End of Turn Phase
- Active player status passes to the player on the left of the current active
player. The new active player begins its “start of  turn phase” (A).


AND THEN:

Activation Sequence

- Discard 1 of that unit’s activation cards from your hand.
- Choose to take 0-2 simple actions OR 0-1 complex action with that unit
- Resolve the actions you chose with that unit.
- End the unit’s activation.

(During their activation, a unit that is taking a complex action is treated as having no talents at all, and only permanent powers.)

SO:

I call it activation instead of action, I think it is more exact (you activate units, isn't it?), but well, this is just tastes, everything is understandable.

Then some of the information you gave, must be placed elsewhere, I suggest then some changes to include this things you have now in the sequence turn:
- When you say that “Resolve any powers that occur at the start of the unit’s activation”. Just say, in the power description, that it takes place BEFORE RESOLVING an action.

- When you say “Resolve any powers that occur at the end of the unit’s activation” just say in power description: AFTER RESOLVING an action or BEFORE the end of the unit’s activation.

- That sentence of “Effects of powers that were triggered in your previous turn and last for 1 round end now”, just could explain in the description of the power that it lasts “until the beginning of  the next activation sequence” instead of 1 turn...

- Another posibility is to get rid of the RECALL phase, treating recall as if it was a power or a talent and explaining in the power or talent description that it is used BEFORE the "end of turn" phase. I think that including a whole phase for something that can be perfectly designated as a talent or a power is complicating things.

Well, that's all I think. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 6:19 am

@ QW

If you manage to make some of the changes that I propose, or even use some idees, perhaps you could even get rid of the maneuvers Chart... think about it: you have included exactly where we must do each maneuver inside the turn sequence.

The Chart explains:

"draw cards": already in the sequence turn, explained that it is in the start of turn
"second activation": explained after first activation, already inside turn structure
"recall" and "evade": couldn't they become powers? or talents?
"invoke powers" explained in each description of the power...

The only one that is OUTSIDE the normal turn estructure is the "search the deck", I am sure you can do ONE explanation. So perhaps the maneuvers and the turn structure could be defined toghether. perhaps there's no need for the Chart.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 10:16 am

Plus je vois les questions défiler et plus je m'inquiète...
J'ai l'impression que les cas particuliers sont innombrables et que beaucoup de points de règles concernant l'utilisation des figurines sont ambigus ou imprécis vis-à-vis de d'autres règles...

Je crains donc pour la fluidité du jeu si il faut passer la partie le nez dans les règles ou pire, à devoir chercher des points de règles sur tout les forums qui en parleront...
Je mise pourtant beaucoup sur MBP et j'espère me tromper...

Je sais que le livret de règles n'est pas encore dans sa version définitive mais bon.

PS : Je préfère un livret de règle plus conséquent que des règles imprécises. Peut-être serait-il intéressant d'avoir une annexe sur l'utilisation (particulière) de chaque figurines ?

A savoir que mon commentaire se base surtout sur la lecture des multiples questions des autres backers.

===================================
Google Trad :

The more I see the questions scroll and the more I worry ...
I have the impression that the special cases are innumerable and that many points of rules concerning the use of the minis are ambiguous or imprecise with respect to other rules ...

I'm afraid for the fluidity of the game if it is necessary to keep the nose in the rules or worse, to have to seek points of rules on all the forums that will speak about it ...
I put a lot on MBP and I hope I'm wrong ...

I know the rulebook is not yet in its final version but well.

PS: I prefer a more consistent rule book than imprecise rules. Perhaps it would be interesting to have an appendix on the (particular) use of each minis ?

To know that my comment is mainly based on reading the multiple questions of the other backers.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 1:14 pm

@Vianney : Those questions are here to add more precision in the actual rules work.
Once the rules release, we ll have almost no more questions or just a phew.
As you said, Fans will build a stratégic book (later) to explain each unit in strategic situation and power utility.

@Ricardo :
Quote :
"draw cards": already in the sequence turn, explained that it is in the start of turn

I think you don't get it because the draw card possibility with AoW is not in the turn sequence.
You can use this draw manoeuvre when you want during your turn.

The draw sequence you can see in the actual rules is only the first card normal draw and the Pass effect if you pass your turn.

If you put Recall as Talent or power, then if you do a complexe action, you can't do recall.
Actually you can Run and recall and thats nice to protect God after a run with Guard Troop.

The actual chart for AoW use are not bad at all and explain what, when, how much...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 1:41 pm

@ Garshell

I said "draw cardS"
They say in the chart that "draw two cards" is done "between steps b and c". So it is not something you can do whenever you want, unlike "searching the deck for a card", that I already explained is the only thing you can do whenever you like. You don't DRAW a card searching the deck, because drawing means taking the uppermost card, unlike searching the deck. I think you have not understood what I meant: the "normal" draw card is in rules and turn sequence, perfect. The "draw two cards" maneuver could be in the turn structure, as a lot of other things, that's why I found the chart redundant and perhaps unneeded or cumbersome if you have information about maneuvers included in the turn sequence.
I se the problem with actual ruling and using recall, but in my opinion there's options to be able to use this tactic and still we considered a talent or a power. In fact, the only difference I see between talents and powers are the possibility of using the same talent in a lot of units with just one explanation. So you could explain "recall" as a talent that explicitly allows you to run. For example, if the tactic is widely used and you don't want to change this thing, just say:
Talents:
.
.
Recall: A unit that recalls can place one single troop unit in the same area he is (blahblahblah about units destroyed, etc). Recall can be used after declaring a run action.

And that's all


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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 1:47 pm

@ Garshell or say it is a permanent power that allows you to place troop units in youra area, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 2:14 pm

Ricardo Tapias Rios wrote:
@ Garshell

I said "draw cardS"
They say in the chart that "draw two cards" is done "between steps b and c".

No. They say "draw two cards" is done "during steps b and c". So when you want during your turn except for the first normal draw you must do this before, and the recall manoeuvre must be done at the very end of the turn.
And if you Pass, you can't do manoeuvre as well.

And other thing, Talent and power are Units abilities.
Manoeuvre are Player possibility and game mechanic. I think we shouldn't mix both...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta version 2.5   10th January 2017, 2:34 pm

To explain that thing about maneuvers and turn structure I'd do a version of what I meant. It is not something I really like, but just for the sake of explaining another possibility:

Turn Sequence and Maneuvers
Every turn consists of the following phases. The active player must complete
each step, in order, unless they are instructed to skip to a later one.
Manoeuvres are special actions that needs to be "bought" by discarding cards from their hand. Each AoW card a manoeuvre costs must be paid for discarding 1 or more Art of War cards as described in the maneuver section. (the maneuver section should then describe the effects and "price" but here we explain WHEN can you make the maneuver because in my opinion it fits here to understand the whole mechanic of maneuvers being outside turn structure... or somewhat inside)
Cards can only be discarded from the player’s hand.
During B and C phases you may buy a "draw a card maneuver"
During the whole turn you may buy a "search for a card" maneuver"
Powers and talents take place in different moments and therefore when to use them is explained in the respective section

A) Start of Turn Phase
- Draw 1 card from your deck.
- Decide whether to pass or continue. If you choose pass, you may draw a
second card from your deck and then must immediately go to “end of turn phase”(E).

B) First Activation Phase
- To activate a unit, proceed to ACTIVATION SEQUENCE. If you don’t activate a unit, go to “recall phase”(D).

C) Second Activation Phase
- To activate a second unit, discard 1 AoW card and proceed to ACTIVATION SEQUENCE. If you don’t activate a second unit, go to “recall phase”(D).

D) Recall Phase (if aplicable, see below!!!!!)
- Decide whether or not to discard 1 AoW card to recall 1 unit of troops.
See page XXX.

E) End of Turn Phase
- Active player status passes to the player on the left of the current active
player. The new active player begins its “start of turn phase” (A).

SO NOW:
- "second activation" is no longer a maneuver, no need to explain in "maneuvers"
- "recall" has a specific place (considering that you have not converted it into a talent or power, then it is used as a normal one)
- "evade": Should be a talent or power, of course not a needed specific moment to be used.



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