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 Poll on hand limits

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Should there be a hand limit, and if so how many cards?
No hand limit.
90%
 90% [ 36 ]
7 cards
5%
 5% [ 2 ]
10 cards
3%
 3% [ 1 ]
12 cards
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
15 cards
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
20 cards
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 40
 

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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 7:27 pm

I think the reason we've never seen it in our games is that we play aggressively to win. No time to sit around messing about with deck sizes. If you tried that then your opponent would have won before you got to do anything fancy Smile
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Garshell
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 7:46 pm

so maybe we could stay like this, let play all backers and after some time IF needing you could add tournament special rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 8:17 pm

That's certainly one option.
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Biel
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 8:50 pm

You could also remove that we draw three extra cards from the newly created deck and replace p.19 of the rules "All other players then immediately draw all of the remaining cards from their decks and create a new Deck by shuffling their discard pile." by "The next active opposing player choose if all other players then immediately draw all of the remaining cards from their decks and create a new Deck by shuffling their discard pile, or not."
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 9:12 pm

You can have 0 cards left when someone else refreshes the deck. So not taking 3 cards is a bit crippling.
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MaxC
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 9:25 pm

Garshell wrote:
MaxC wrote:
I'm in agreement with these points. It seems it's such a rare edge case that it's perhaps not worth trying to find convoluted ways of fixing it.

On the other hand, one possible way to prevent an infinite loop would be to completely reset the player's hand if he can't draw anymore. For instance, if a player would draw a card and has no cards remaining in the draw pile or discard pile, then that player shuffles his hand and that becomes his new deck. He then draws 6 cards.
You'd still end up having frequent cycles because of the small amount of cards, but at least the players aren't playing with their entire deck in their hand. It's an extra rule to remember, but I think it would be an rare enough situation that you could just look it up in the rules if it ever occurs.

Wow no way about the hand and discard pile shuffling !!! Imagine this case, you have your 3 God cards at the end your deck, you take those card using AW and no more card left. You play one oki, but next turn you must draw a card at the begining of your turn and then PAFFFFFFFFF you loose all your hand !!! no way !!!

In that case, you'd have some cards in your discard pile so it would just trigger a regular cycle. It should also be noted that if 3 cards are left in your deck, you know exactly what they are from what's in your hand and what you've already played. There's no way you'd want to retrieve 3 god activations in a single turn, you wouldn't be able to use them all at once either way.

The only situations I can imagine where you would have to draw a card and have none left is in the cases where infinite cycling might happen, or if someone just hoards all the cards without playing anything, which is the worst possible tactic.
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Biel
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 9:31 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
You can have 0 cards left when someone else refreshes the deck. So not taking 3 cards is a bit crippling.
I meant that no one take 3 cards, even the player who refreshes the deck.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   3rd January 2017, 11:09 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
That's certainly one option.

That's certainly the best one, for the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 1:07 am

I looked at the way to get into cycling. If a player just goes with a fast recruit against a deck cycler, cant you have already absorbed 2 omphalos and be holding a third omphalo by the time the cycler gets to where he needs to be to cause the problem?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 1:50 am

The Challenge I see is if a player with a large deck has a small discard pile at the point of a cycle.  In that case they would draw most of their deck into their hand, shuffle and reduce the already small new draw pile.  This could lead to a situation where a player plays for an extended period with most of their cards in their hand - which seems to eliminate the balance of some units being more active through the use of extra cards.

Biel wrote:
You could also remove that we draw three extra cards from the newly created deck

So to modify this thought, instead of foregoing a draw entirely, what if the rule stated, players "All players with less than 3 cards in their hand draw to bring their hands up to 3 cards."?  This would slow a refresh cycle without crippling players who happen to have a small had at the time of the cycle.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 10:45 am

@Malamute - basically, that would be my experience: there isn't time to do fancy deck shenanigans if the other player is romping towards their victory condition. However, I've not really tried it, so I want to ensure that it's not a problem if a simple rules tweak could solve it.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 12:53 pm

I worry about creating a "fix" for a perceived incredibly rare use case only to concretely disrupt the normal flow of the game.

While not overly complex, this also isn't the simplest of games. It has its share of visual and cognitive management that the player must deal with. Adding in a repetitive moment each turn to check your hand size seems like too much extra management.

I want to be thinking about what I'm going to be doing next, not worrying if I have too many cards in my hand.

If this "deck cycling" can actually be reproduced, and is in fact deemed to be game-breaking is there a better way to "fix" it without disrupting the normal flow?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 1:21 pm

It's funny that people find checking hand size so onerous. I've played games for decades, and never worried about checking hand size in the dozens of games that require it. Can't say I've ever heard anyone bemoaning the need to check sizes in play either.

Hand management is a core skill for many games. It's not a negative thing, it's part of learning to be good at many games.

That said, the current plan is not to have a hand limit Smile

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Biel
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 1:44 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
It's funny that people find checking hand size so onerous. I've played games for decades, and never worried about checking hand size in the dozens of games that require it. Can't say I've ever heard anyone bemoaning the need to check sizes in play either.

Hand management is a core skill for many games. It's not a negative thing, it's part of learning to be good at many games.

That said, the current plan is not to have a hand limit Smile
I have no problem with checking hand sizes. Just if we can find a simple way to go without such a rule, it would be better.
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Denarius
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 2:16 pm

Replace 'hand management' with "using the indicator in your car" (one instance) and 'many games' with "driving" (two instances).

Then convince me that people regularly use this core skill -- where lives hang in the balance.

Q wrote: Hand management is a core skill for many games. It's not a negative thing, it's part of learning to be good at many games.
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Malamute
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 2:25 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
@Malamute - basically, that would be my experience: there isn't time to do fancy deck shenanigans if the other player is romping towards their victory condition. However, I've not really tried it, so I want to ensure that it's not a problem if a simple rules tweak could solve it.

I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   4th January 2017, 3:29 pm

I think at then end there are more problems for the small deck than the big one after the first cycle.

Too small Deck
Pro :
- Really fast play before the first Cycle
- Card come back fast too

Counter :
- Only 3 units, if you lose one that will be almost the end for your god
- Cycling give a lot of choice to all other player. and then can retaliate often and give them action during small deck turn...
- You ll be often the target =)


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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   8th January 2017, 2:01 am

I'm not sure if this a hand limits topic or a stand alone topic related to battle cycles, however the impact has been discussed here.

What happens when a player runs out of their draw pile when an opponent has a very small discard pile?

In this case an opponent seems like they could:
1) Empty their draw pile into their hand
2) Create a very small new draw pile
3) Immediately empty that draw pile when they execute the 3 card draw post shuffle (would this allow the the player who just ran out of a dray pile to cycle and play with his entire deck in his hand)

Or is there something I'm missing about this?
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