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 Poll on hand limits

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Should there be a hand limit, and if so how many cards?
No hand limit.
90%
 90% [ 36 ]
7 cards
5%
 5% [ 2 ]
10 cards
3%
 3% [ 1 ]
12 cards
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
15 cards
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
20 cards
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 40
 

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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 1:25 pm

Do you think that there should be a hand limit?

Currently there is no limit and we've been playing that way all along. However, there was a suggestion on the KS comments from people, who'd been playing the PnP version that in certain circumstances you could trigger repeated cycling of decks in a very short space of time.

We've not seen this problem in all our many games, but it's just possible we've missed it. Theoretically we can see how it just might be possible, though extraordinarily rare. A simple way to mitigate it would be to introduce a hand limit of some sort.

I'd be interested in hearing your arguments either way, so comments are very welcome as well as clicks Smile
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Teowulff
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 1:41 pm

1. A hand limit is a stealth nerf to Hippolyta and Pandora  Mad , so not in favour of it.

2. Next to that in my games we often save up a lot of cards when playing because you:
* want to do specific combos or
* want to be able to have 2 subsequent activations for the same unit or
* are waiting for that AoW card before your tactical plan can get executed or
* want to do a burst attack over a few turns and need to have a lot of cards

... so a 10+ hand is no exception. Especially the low number of AoW cards is really crippling (at the most you only have 1 AoW vs 3 AC - but in most decks it will be 1:4 or 1:5) and most Troop units lack any offensive punch (often I have done 0 damage with a Troops attack, which is really discouraging) and add a lot of AC to your deck.

3. Also it punishes economic card and "big deck" strategies where you get your remaining deck cards if the opponent has to reshuffle.
A Typhon player with 2 big 4RP units will get through his deck in no time and with a strict hand limit his opponent has to discard 10+ cards each time a new cycle starts.
Generally speaking: taking a few big units will get rewarded - while recruiting low RP units and troops will get penalized.

Conslusion: a hand limit also limits the number of viable counter-drafts and tactics.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 2:44 pm

I voted for a no hand limit for mainly 2 reasons: I am quite confident in the mythic team play test sand I don't want to calculate the number of cards in my hand while I am waiting for that particular card in my deck.

Could the people who encountered that "no hand limit problem" describe the case to have an idea of its probability?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 2:47 pm

That would be very helpful. I don't have the time to wade through the KS comments to find who they were. I gots rules to write Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 2:50 pm

Since I haven't PnP, is this something that occurs mostly in multiplayer(3 or 4 players) games?

I have seen this mentioned but never took the time to understand the problem.

Can someone explain exactly how the deck cycling occurs?

And if it does, doesn't it just speed up the game cuz everyone is just blasting nastiness around the board?

I need more explanation for a proper vote.
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Artur
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 3:04 pm

I vote for no hand limit. As I understand you can only get big hand if you didn't play many cards before or your units have some powers to get more cards, in any case it is a legit way to hold a big hand. So I find it unfair for certain strategies to limit a number of cards.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 3:46 pm

The rule for coming to the end of your deck is as follows:

When a player needs to draw a card and his deck has none left, all other players take their entire deck into their hands. Everyone then shuffles their discard pile to form their new deck. Every player then draws 3 cards from their new deck. Play continues from there.

Obviously this can mean that players get very big hands, if one player uses lots of cards and they don't. The rule intends to balance this by rewarding the slower player with more options (cards) to balance things a bit.

The potential problem, as I understand it, is that you can get into a situation where the new decks are so small that they get recycled very quickly. And, because they are being recycled again one after the other, the discard piles you have to build decks are also small. Which makes this a bad feedback cycle.

This was reported as something which came up during play of the PnP set.

The odd thing is that we've never seen this happen in our test games. We don't know whether they were doing something wrong (though they didn't seem to be when we discussed it), or whether there was something to do with their player's styles of play, the combination of forces they had, or what.

Having done some theorising, I can just about imagine a combination where this might be possible. You'd need to have more than 2 players, and they'd probably need radically different army and playing styles. I've not tried doing this deliberately yet.

A hand limit would mitigate this problem. The question is whether the problem is really there, or bad enough to need it, and whether a hand limit causes more issues elsewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 3:59 pm

Teowulff wrote:

3. Also it punishes economic card and "big deck" strategies where you get your remaining deck cards if the opponent has to reshuffle.
A Typhon player with 2 big 4RP units will get through his deck in no time and with a strict hand limit his opponent has to discard 10+ cards each time a new cycle starts.
Generally speaking: taking a few big units will get rewarded - while recruiting low RP units and troops will get penalized.

To my opinion this is the most important point to take into account.
I've been playing many MB:P games, and some gamers like to play "mini decks" with, let's say, Ares, Achilles and Cerberus (for example). This kind of army is easy to put in place because there are few units so there are bigger chances to be able to activate any of our units. This is helpful for fast-winning strategies, and the rule which makes players draw all their deck in their hand whenever a player drafts his last card helps bigger decks to stay "in game" with a chance to win with longer term strategies. Limiting the number of card in hand will penalize this kind of decks, and in my opinion it should tend to impoverish the game environment.

Another point already underlined: it adds one thing to do each turn: counting cards. And this is not a funny adding!
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:02 pm

Have you ever seen the problem I mentioned in your games Peps?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:15 pm

Unless there is a mechanical reason in the game for hand limits that a hand limit should not be added. As I understood it this was a balancing mechanic against people running through their decks too quickly. It seems designed as a tactical choice players can make on how quickly they try to burn through their decks and how many AoW cards they try to recruit into their army.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:24 pm

I think that we met this situation you described (if I understood well): "The potential problem, as I understand it, is that you can get into a situation where the new decks are so small that they get recycled very quickly. And, because they are being recycled again one after the other, the discard piles you have to build decks are also small. Which makes this a bad feedback cycle."

But never in a "classical" game. We observed it when we worked on scenarized games with very little decks (10-12 cards), and the consequence is that you have all your deck in your hand, and could face situations where the draft of 3 cards from the new deck empties the deck one more time and you have nothing to draft for the next turns. But all is possible because you have all your AoW & activation card in your hand. This is not a problem in the scenarized environment where we met the case, according to me, because this has no impact on the game. But this may be something that could have to be fixed by rules in order to avoid that kind of infinite loop.
My suggestion: if someone has 3 cards or less in his deck after the reshuffling, then he skips the "draft 3 cards" step.

I'm not sure my post is clear, sorry for that. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification if needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:30 pm

Theoricaly, in a game 2v2 if one player take only Aphrodite (4 AC/0 AW/0 RP), Charydbis (3 AC/0 AW/5 RP) and Colchis Bull (3 AC/0 AW/3 RP). This will be the shortest deck of the game with only 10 cards.
When you start you must add 3 AW in your hand (so 13 card in total).
Begining ot his 1st turn : Hand 7 /Deck 6 /DisP 0
Play ENTER one of the 3 units and ENTER another one as 2nd Activation. Using 1AW to draw 2 and  his last AW to seach a card.
Ending of his 1st turn : Hand 5 /Deck 3 /DisP 5
Begining of his 2nd turn : Hand 6 /Deck 2 /DisP 5
Play PASS
Ending of his 2nd turn : Hand 7 /Deck 1 /DisP 5
Begining of his 3rd turn : Hand 8 /Deck 0 /DisP 5
Battle Cycle is activate and then :
Begining of his 3rd turn : Hand 11 /Deck 2 /DisP 0
Using 1 AW to draw 2, so Hand 12 /Deck 0 /DisP 1

Battle Cycle is activate and then :
Always in his 3rd turn (but the draw tactic already used) : Hand 13 /Deck 0 /DisP 0
He can Play whatever he want as 1st Activation, (note that he don't have any card in his deck so he CAN T use the search tactic). He can play another Activation and up this DisP to 3 or more is he use special power, but newt turn he can have all his card in hand agains by using Tactics and so on...
Note that he don't have more than 13 card so an hand limitation to 20 don't make sense and even with
10 as limitation it won't erase this case.

This case is really rare and need a really short Deck.

But now what is the real probleme in this case ?
ALL player will have alosmt all their card in hand and a short Deck.
They will ALL have the possibility to play what they want and even more cause the other player get maybe leader Talent to Activate more ally Troops to reduce vitality of this little 3 units army.
Its not a really good situation to search to have. Oki maybe if your ally got Ares and Chimera, that could be nice...

One way to evoid this Battle Cycle abuse and get some space beetween 2 Battle Cycle, is to add another condition to do this Battle Cycle.

Condition 1 : There are no  more card in your Deck and you must draw 1 or more cards.
Condition 2 (A) : You have strictly less card in hand than your Discard pile.

So if you want/need to draw and no more card left in your deck... so you don't draw.

I didn't vote and wait for your argument or some other option like i said : Balancing Hand/DiscardPile condition

HS: @Quickworthy : About Pandora, can she attack with more than 10 dice if you have more than 10 cards in hand ? i think we should add a (maximum limite of 10 dice on her power).


Last edited by Garshell on 3rd January 2017, 12:11 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:43 pm

I think a limit should always be there to prevent "exploiting". Even a big one, but there has to be one.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:48 pm

Orword wrote:
I think a limit should always be there to prevent "exploiting". Even a big one, but there has to be one.
As i said just before, Limitation in hand won't change the fast cycling. Just check the case i wrote. And this could add more problemes because all the other must discard many cards after each Battle Cycle... and then no really more choice at the end.


Last edited by Garshell on 2nd January 2017, 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 4:50 pm

I do agree with Garshell!

@ Orword: what do you mean by "exploiting"?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 5:32 pm

@Garshell - 10 dice is the max for an attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 5:47 pm

I voted no hand limit because it seems to negatively affect too much that is not the problem. I am in favor of some rule limiting cycling based on when you last did it (ie, not two turns in a row), or based on the discard/cards in hand ratio (more in hand than discard + library = can not draw, even with AoW).
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 5:53 pm

Garshell wrote:
As i said just before, Limitation in hand won't change the fast cycling. Just check the case i wrote. And this could add more problemes because all the other must discard many cards after each Battle Cycle... and then no really more choice at the end.

I agree, a hand limit would not change fast cycling. That is an exploit that should be adressed in other ways and will possibly need a whole new discussion to sort it out. Instead, a hand limit could be useful to prevent things such as Pandora gaining 10 Offence and many other that people will eventually find and use. However, I am aware that a hand limit will conflict when cycling, since the opponent has to draw all the remaining cards in his deck and will more than often end up with more cards than a possible hand limit. That would have to be sorted out as well.


Last edited by Orword on 2nd January 2017, 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 6:12 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
@Garshell - 10 dice is the max for an attack.

This should be written somewhere and reminded on her power  :
Pandora gains +1 Attack for each card in your hand until end of turn (max 10 cards)
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 6:28 pm

Of course. It will be in the ATTACK rules as it's a general rule for that action.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 7:09 pm

Why the players who pick their entire deck have to pick 3 cards on their new discarded deck? Won't they have enough cards already?
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 7:19 pm

Pseudonyme wrote:
Why the players who pick their entire deck have to pick 3 cards on their new discarded deck? Won't they have enough cards already?

On their new Deck you mean =))

I think it s the way to put all player at the same state in card draw.
When a player use a Tactic to draw or search, this will give him choice and control at this time, but when a Battle cycle come, all player will have the same number of card draw.

A player with more card in hand after a cycle will have more choice but havent more than 2 activations per turn.
They will have more retalitions possibility for sure. (so play more during the ennemy turn)
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 7:58 pm

Maybe it's evident when playing, which I did not do yet, but as far as I understand this case, it seems to me that the other players would have enough cards picked.
I guess it's obvious when you play
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 8:17 pm

It depends on how many cards were left in other player's decks to draw. They may have had 0 cards left.
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PostSubject: Re: Poll on hand limits   2nd January 2017, 8:37 pm

The probability seems low, but it's you that play tested the beast Wink
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