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 Beta rules v2.2

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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 5:24 pm

Here is my (short) take on 2.2 (and some lateness on 2.1):

Glossary wrote:
ENTER: short for ENTER the board - a complex action.
Detriment: a power that is bad for the unit. They are the only type of power that remains in effect when the unit makes a complex action.
So there is a change in the rules here ?
We were previously told that Ajax do not loose one Vitality when entering the Battlefield for example.

Turn Sequence wrote:
Resolve 0-2 different simple actions with that unit.
(I already made that point)
Maybe we should add the word sequentially or add detail to the MOVE action to specify you cannot split your movement.

Talents wrote:
A talent’s numerical modifiers (such as the +1 Offence in Archer) only affect a unit’s stats. They do not modify powers.
So Torment is not applicable for Powers ? I would have thought otherwise.
Honestly, I am not convinced with this presentation. I would prefer if there was a symbol next to each Talent description to specify if it affect Powers or stats only. I believe it would remove all ambiguity, provide the info next to the talent and be short.

Glossary wrote:
Desk
Not a fan of the term Razz I would prefer something like "Reserve" (in French anyway)

Mighty Throw wrote:
If the owner discarded sufficient blanks to throw the target unit, the thrown unit drops any omphalos they were carrying, and is then moved into an area adjacent to its starting area.
I don't like the wording : who decide where to move the unit. Will there be indication that the unit cannot be moved to some type of terrain (impassable) ?

Mobility wrote:
When activated, this unit can ATTACK and then MOVE.
I would suggest : "This unit can ATTACK and MOVE in any order (expanding 2 simple actions)."
(just to say that you can also move then attack)

No definition of Area Attack and Retaliation ?
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Telgar
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 5:27 pm

Orword wrote:
Regarding the Glossary, I can't help but think we're overcomplicating things a little bit, while also steering away from what the goal of a Glossary is:

I agree, we are closer to a definition section than a glossary. I am ok with that. Maybe we should rename the section Definitions.
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Voice of Olympus
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 5:49 pm

Glossary may be the wrong word. It was originally called something else. I'll change that. My aim with it (whatever it's called) is to provide a single place where someone can go during a game to find out whatever they need to resolve any rules query, even if they end up with a signpost to a second page. "Game Terms" isn't very slick, but it is perhaps more accurate.

The addition of detriment is to create Benoit's original intent with Ajax. yes, this is a rules change.

You cannot split a MOVE. This will be explained in the action description as it is about how that works, not how the turn sequence works.

I would argue that having a universal rule for the powers that talents modify (none of them) is far simpler than adding icons to some of them. And this global ban is the way it was intended to work.

Deck (short for draw deck) is a normal term in English. In French it should be whatever is common in that language. Not really my area of expertise though Smile

I've removed Area attack for now. It will reappear later. Same with retaliation. I want to put them back when I have the full section on those rules ready.


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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 6:12 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
Glossary may be the wrong word. It was originally called something else. I'll change that. My aim with it (whatever it's called) is to provide a single place where someone can go during a game to find out whatever they need to resolve any rules query, even if they end up with a signpost to a second page. "Game Terms" isn't very slick, but it is perhaps more accurate.

Oh, I see, though right now I think it's trying to be a little bit of both (a Glossary and a...  Game Terms section). Honestly I'd rather have a Glossary whose goal is to give a short but clear description and then redirect to the respective rule section and leave possible rule queries to a FAQ list.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 6:37 pm

In a perfect world I'd not have a FAQ at all.

This section is something of a hybrid because it is trying to deal with the most common queries folk will have during a game without duplicating the entire rule for something long. Some will be obvious and easily remembered (AoW card), and others may only be worth looking up when dealing with a specific power or combination of powers.

What I want to provide is the easiest way to get what you need from the rules so you can get back to the game soonest. A pure glossary would almost always require looking at that, then looking at something else too. By including a summary in the definitions where appropriate, we can avoid a fair number of those additional look up steps.

Exactly where you draw that line will be endlessly debatable Smile

Make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 8:37 pm

Biel wrote:
MaxC wrote:
Biel wrote:

- For Leader talent : In 2v2 game, with Athena, if my third activation is a unit with leader talent that finish his activation in the same area than an ~allied troop, I can then make a fourth activation during the same turn ??

Leader doesn't bypass maximum activations iirc.
In the Beta rules v2.2, it does MaxC. Look page 9, Leader talent description, 3rd paragraph  :
This Leader activation does not count towards the maximum number of unit activations allowed for the turn.

So it does, my bad. In that case, I'd say there's no reason why it wouldn't allow for a 4th activation. This also makes Leader way better than it used to be.


Ryo wrote:
Voice of Olympus wrote:

Divinity - still not entirely convinced.

Concerning divinity, I think it is good to use a deity. But I do not know which is better sincerely (gods, divinity, or deity). In some RPGs, a deity is often used. And, a deity is used in Bulfinch’s Mythology (for example, “Vesta (the Hestia of the Greeks) was a deity presiding over …”). In either case, when I will translate it into Japanese, I'll use Kami (in Japanese, it means Gods)…lol…

Deity is definitely a better term.than divinity. I'm still not sure if it would be worth defining an additional term if god includes titans for rules purposes.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 10:01 pm

1.
Voice of Olympus wrote:
As you correctly worked out, you can activate more than 2 or even 3 units as long as you were playing more than 2 player games and activated other player's friendly units with your Leaders.
I don't think this needs changing in the rules as the answer you came to from the current wording is entirely right.
Yes, I think the rules are clear for Talent leader. It was just to be sure you thought at that possibility in 2v2 games Smile

2. Assault : [...]Each ATTACK is made up of 2 assaults[...] or more I think. If you want to hurt Atlas in a ruin (11 def), you may need more than 2 assaults.

3. During an ATTACK, Monster slayer talent allow to reroll up to 2 dices. May you clarify if thoose rerolls can be used during only one assault, or divided during 2 assaults ? Only during the first assault ? 2 dices per assault or 2 dices per ATTACK ? May we reroll only one die but 2 times ?

4.
Orword wrote:
Regarding the Glossary, I can't help but think we're overcomplicating things a little bit, while also steering away from what the goal of a Glossary is:
I am not yet sure but I was also thinking if the Glossary (wathever it's called) is not to big or don't go to deeper into rules. More "See page XXX" could make it lighter.

5. For the term of Deity or Divinity, I won't dispute your proposition. English is not my 1st language Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 10:10 pm

Biel wrote:
If you want to hurt Atlas in a ruin (11 def), you may need more than 2 assaults

I think that defense is capped to 10 whatever the circumstances. (and assault to 10 dice)
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 10:13 pm

2) Only if def was not capped at 10, like Offence Smile

3) Good point.

4) This is always the problem. If it's doing a job of being a 1-stop site for most rules queries, then it has to be larger than a bare bones glossary. Can't see a way to avoid that, and being useful is more important than being short Smile

5) Deity is a synonym of god, so doesn't represent titan as a collective term. Divinity isn't really much better. Though they're all after the omphalos, so...

Commander would be an accurate collective term, because gods and titans are certainly both that.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 10:25 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
5) Deity is a synonym of god, so doesn't represent titan as a collective term. Divinity isn't really much better. Though they're all after the omphalos, so...

Commander would be an accurate collective term, because gods and titans are certainly both that.
Fallens ? We are in a post-apocalyptic game Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 10:26 pm

Actually, thinking about it, scratch my earlier statement. Titans were sort of divinities - just not the same batch as the Olympians. I'm being prejudiced here, believing the Mt Olympus propaganda machine. They weren't the first deities...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 11:02 pm

Quote :
Active unit: the unit whose activation it is. There is never more than 1 active
unit at a time, though there can be none.

The fact that "though there can be none", has nothing to do with Active unit.

Quote :
Turn: a player’s turn is their chance to act with the units in their army.

... and doing some Tactics by using their AW cards.

I have some questions about the Tactics use during the other players turn...
Can i only use a Search Tactic during the other player turn only if i m under attack and only to search the activation card of this unit ?
I have other questions, but i ll wait the Tactic rules.

Quote :
B) First Action Phase
1) Choose a unit.
2) Discard 1 of that unit’s activation cards from your hand.
3) Decide whether the unit will take:
a. 0-2 simple actions (go to B4), or
b. 1 complex action (go to B7).

Should we add beetween the 2) and the 3), "check and apply token effects on this unit if you have some". I don't know how to say this but same as 1) conserning effect you send with any units, we should have something conserning effect other players send to this unit.

Quote :
Gem Collector
This unit can CLAIM an omphalos from anywhere in its surroundings.

Can this unit ABSORB an omphalos from anywhere in its surroundings, if this omphalos is on the ground (even if there is an enemy with Block) or on one of your unit ?

Quote :
Leader ...

About Ally unit lead by the Leader Talent, who choose what to do with them ? Ally or Activ player ?




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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   2nd January 2017, 11:30 pm

You can discard an AoW card to search for a card whenever you like.

I'll have to check the token details to see if they need a specific point to be applied. They may well need a mention somewhere. Alternatively it may be possible to phrase their associated power to say when they apply.

CLAIM and ABSORB are entirely different actions. Gem Collector affects only one of them Smile

The Leader's owner chooses which unit will act. The owner of that unit chooses what it will do.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 12:09 am

Voice of Olympus wrote:
You can discard an AoW card to search for a card whenever you like.

Can i draw 2 cards whenever i like too ?

Voice of Olympus wrote:
CLAIM and ABSORB are entirely different actions. Gem Collector affects only one of them Smile

Just to remember, on the KS news "Talent Show" we can read :
"Gem Collector : This unit can collect Omphalos from adjacent areas as if they were on its own area."
Now we know that collect=CLAIM, but collect could be ABSORB too =)) You should ask Benoit for confirmation on this point (Maybe ?).
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 3:49 am

Small question about the sequence of play.

According to the rules, if I want to recall one unit of troops using one AoW I need to NOT PASS my turn and then to select and activate one of my units. But if I don't have the necesary card to activate any of them I will not be able to recall at the end of the turn.

Do you think this is necessary? since I'm already paying one AoW card to recall my unit and I'm not getting the second card from Passing the turn, maybe there should be an option to go to Point D1 without having to activate any unit before.

Thanks for your time and thanks for the great job you are doing.

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 10:15 am

Feue wrote:
Small question about the sequence of play.

According to the rules, if I want to recall one unit of troops using one AoW I need to NOT PASS my turn and then to select and activate one of my units. But if I don't have the necesary card to activate any of them I will not be able to recall at the end of the turn.

Do you think this is necessary? since I'm already paying one AoW card to recall my unit and I'm not getting the second card from Passing the turn, maybe there should be an option to go to Point D1 without having to activate any unit before.

Thanks for your time and thanks for the great job you are doing.

Cheers!

You don't need to activate one of your units to RECALL, but you can't pass your turn to do it =)).
so draw 1 card and then use your AW to RECALL, then End of your turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 1:23 pm

@Garshell - You can only spend an AoW to draw 2 cards on your own turn when you do not pass.

Gem Collector does not modify ABSORB. I wrote all the KS updates Smile

@Feue - as it currently stands, you have a point. I'll double-check that's not correct, but I suspect that you should be able to do as Garshell suggests.



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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 2:12 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:

@Feue - as it currently stands, you have a point. I'll double-check that's not correct, but I suspect that you should be able to do as Garshell suggests.

Agree with that, what Garshell suggests its exactly the same thing I was asking to be able to do. It's just that with the current rules, you are not able if you follow them strictly.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:20 pm

@QW

Mobility
When activated, this unit can ATTACK and then MOVE


This Talent gave me pause. I thought the rule against attacking and moving was to keep units from melee attacking and running away. I didn't think it impacted range attacks. (You could shoot a bow and reposition or move then shoot) Mobility implies this is not the case.

Is this correct?
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:30 pm

WTFGamer wrote:
@QW

Mobility
When activated, this unit can ATTACK and then MOVE


This Talent gave me pause. I thought the rule against attacking and moving was to keep units from melee attacking and running away. I didn't think it impacted range attacks. (You could shoot a bow and reposition or move then shoot) Mobility implies this is not the case.

Is this correct?

In any case you can't use the combinaison of ATTACK (both melee or range) then MOVE.
Mobility skill is the only way you can do this.
And maybe the Atalanta Power too. (ATTACK (Range) then MOVE then ATTACK (Melee))
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:36 pm

@WTFGamer - the ATTACK action doesn't care what range you are at, so the rule prohibiting ATTACK - MOVE applies to any range.

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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:39 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:

@Feue - as it currently stands, you have a point. I'll double-check that's not correct, but I suspect that you should be able to do as Garshell suggests.

Yep, I think so.

And then you should just rewrite the sequence of play by changing a "2" in "1"

A) Start of Turn Phase
1) Effects of powers that were triggered in your previous turn and last for 1
round end now.
2) Draw 1 card from your deck.
3) Decide whether to pass or continue. If you choose pass, draw a second
card from your deck and immediately end your turn (go to D2)(go to D1).



Regarding the end of turn sequence, I have one question regarding the D2 phase: "Active player status passes to the player on the left of the current active
player. The new active player starts their turn at A1."
How does it works in a 2vs2 game? In all the games I played (2vs2 is my favourite configuration) each team was on one side of the board, and the sequence of active players was "in Z", which means that 2 players from the same team never play one after the other. With the rule as written in the V2.2., I understand that the 2 players of a team will play one after the other, and I don't like it (too many tricks to win). Or that means that the 2 players of a team are not on the same side of the board, but it looks strange...
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:46 pm

You cannot recall troops if you pass your turn.

The change that's needed is to make activating any unit optional, which is what I've done. That way you can take a turn, not pass, activate no units, then recall a troop.

As we confirmed when we filmed the demo game for TricTrac, if you're playing 2vs 2 and you're not seated alternately, it gets very confusing. Each of the modes with teams needs people to be seated around the table so that the teams alternate. Then the existing rule works for everything, and it's not confusing at all Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 4:55 pm

From the Mighty Throw Talent definition - In addition, whenever this unit ATTACKs, the owner may discard blank results from the first assault to throw the target unit.

From the Assault Glossary definition - A re-roll is part of the same assault as the result it replaces.

Based on these definitions, can misses thrown when during rerolls count toward the Mighty Throw miss count needed?  That's the conclusion I'm drawing. Since the throw is not resolved till the damage is dealt at the end, it makes sense to me.

Sorry if this seems obvious. I'm making sure I understand something that came up during a game. I want to be sure I'm providing the right answers. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Beta rules v2.2   3rd January 2017, 5:06 pm

Voice of Olympus wrote:
You cannot recall troops if you pass your turn.

OK, that is clear.
So if you don't want to activate a unit, you have 2 options: pass and then draw a card, or take the possibility to RECALL a troop and then not draw that card.

Voice of Olympus wrote:
The change that's needed is to make activating any unit optional, which is what I've done. That way you can take a turn, not pass, activate no units, then recall a troop.

In V2.2. I don't understand the activation of a unit optional:
B) First Action Phase
1) Choose a unit.
2) Discard 1 of that unit’s activation cards from your hand.
3) Decide whether the unit will take:
a. 0-2 simple actions (go to B4), or
b. 1 complex action (go to B7).


According to my understanding, you have to discard an activation card; this looks not to be optional.

Voice of Olympus wrote:
As we confirmed when we filmed the demo game for TricTrac, if you're playing 2vs 2 and you're not seated alternately, it gets very confusing. Each of the modes with teams needs people to be seated around the table so that the teams alternate. Then the existing rule works for everything, and it's not confusing at all Smile

OK, I understand that point and agree this was sometimes confusing. This will be easier to follow with that rule.
But the team game will lose some cooperative aspects, when teammates try to establish secret strategies without being understood by the enemy Very Happy
Now they will have to develop secret signs Laughing
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